The King of Stats
Me and My Mates: Dream Matches 3 - Now With Gimmicks
G’day one and all and welcome to the third ever edition of Me and My Mates. That’s right the greatest mass columnist series to ever hit the CF has once again landed and it is now bigger than ever. Yes you read that correctly this will be the biggest ever, after the mess that was the second series with certain writers pulling out late or not getting all their work to me I did the only thing I could to make this series make up for it, I have got myself a bigger panel than I ever have before. You may now go ahead and call me a glutton for punishment but hey it worked didn’t it? I mean there were hiccups along the way but I am here today posting with a full contingent of writers.
For all of you who have never seen this series before let me explain to you how it works. I have gone out and collected 6 of my “mates”, 6 columnists who have earned my respect throughout my time in the forums. All these columnists are kept ignorant of each other so that their replies could not be contaminated by knowing who else is involved. Each writer had to give to me a wrestling dream match, something that they wished to have seen but through circumstances such as time or location the match has never gone down. They then had to write a couple of paragraphs on the match and who they think would actually win the match in question. All columnists were given the other six matches and had to do the same thing for them.
Every day for the next week I will post one of the matches and all of the replies for that particular match so remember to keep checking back in each day for the next match. Oh and did I remember to mention that these are no ordinary dream matches? All the writers were told that their match choice had to have some sort of stipulation to it (e.g. Steel Cage Match). I didn’t care if the wrestlers had faced before as long as they hadn’t faced in that type of match before.
Now for the introductions of those he will be joining me ZZZORF. Firstly we have the newest addition to the main page TRIPLER. Next we have the most positive writer to ever write wrestling MIZFAN. Third we have someone who knows all about wrestling talent MAZZA. Coming in next we have a writer whose work at times slightly resembles my King of Stat work SKULDUGGERY. The next guy is someone who has been a valued member of the forums for a long time but has only just ventured into column writing MACHOMOURN. Last but not least is a special treat, making his CF debut is no other than LUNCHBOX1981.
So without further ado let’s get this show on the road with my match choice, what you could call a real slobberknocker.
Cactus Jack zzzorf: After having two similar matches from me in the first two versions of this series in the form of Daniel Bryan v Chris Benoit and Kurt Angle v Bret Hart, I thought it was about time for a change. After racking my brain through match-up after match-up I kept seeing a similar occurrence, most of my matches contained one of my top five wrestlers of all time. To simplify matters I just kept pairing them off against each other but found I had either seen them before numerous times or the names just did not read good on paper. Mick Foley and John Cena were one of the later.
I Quit Match
A singles match between these two, while having potential, would be highly lacking in basic wrestling skill. The match could be a main event of a lesser PPV but would be easily forgotten and would not normally fall on my list of dream matches. That was until the stipulation is added to the match.
John Cena is as everybody calls him, “Super Cena”. When the I Quit match was invented it was meant for people like him, people who no matter what you throw at them, they just keep getting up every time. He has proven on numerous occasions that he has what it takes to win this match and not say those two dreaded words. But then on the other side of the equation you have Mick Foley, the other type of wrestler that this match was made for. Someone who would do whatever it takes to put the hurt on his opponent which by default leads to victory. What makes Mick even more dangerous in this match though is the Face of Foley he has on. While I would always prefer to see Mankind it cannot be denied that Cactus Jack is the most evil incarnation he ever had.
This could really come down to the wire with picking the winner for the match. It would be as every bit as brutal as I would expect with each of them weathering the storm of each other’s offence. In the end I would have to give the victory to Cena. I don’t know exactly how he would win and what it would take for Cactus to say I Quit but I just can’t think of Cena being the man to say it. Also Foley always does his best work when putting over his opponent.
TripleR: For me, this match would have had to have taken place outside of the PG-era of the WWE that we are in now. Cactus Jack/Dude Love/Mankind/Mick Foley was always at his best when he was just able to go balls out with no restrictions. When working in the confines of today’s PG-era, I just don’t know how successful he would have been in the ring. No disrespect meant to Mick at all, but his in-ring abilities are never going to be compared to Daniel Bryan’s in terms of great “wrestling”.
Mick however, certainly knew how to put on a “match”. He left everything he had in the ring, and in an “I Quit” match with John Cena, I would expect nothing short of chaos. Cena has never really been known as a great mat technician either, but he can certainly work many different match styles. I’d say in this particular case, you have two meant who just never say die. Foley would rather you knock him unconscious than say “I Quit” as evidenced in the brutal match he had with The Rock, and Cena just never, ever gives up. This one would probably go six or seven hours until Foley either drops from exhaustion, or gets hungry and needs a plate of chicken wings. Winner by outlasting his opponent- John Cena.
Mizfan: My god, that’s quite a bloodbath on paper. I can barely imagine what Foley could have done with Cena in his prime. I imagine it would look something quite a bit like the Street Fight with Triple H or the later one with Randy Orton, but if Cena was also in his prime it could easily surpass both of those. I salivate over the idea of Foley coming up with creative, brutal counters to Cena’s trademark offense. Can you imagine one of those flying shoulder blocks being met with barbed wire? Or Foley attempting to bite Cena’s finger off, mid 5 Knuckle Shuffle? The possibilities are nearly endless when you pair a creative mind like Foley with a near superhuman like Cena. The blood would flow copiously, I’m talking Cena at Judgment Day ’05 and Foley at, well, any of his crazy hardcore matches over the year. I imagine the build would feature some brilliant promo work with Cactus ranting about the hypocrisy of Cena, vowing to expose him for the coward that he is, and Cena getting fired up in response and vowing to uphold his honor and never quit. But for the life of me I cannot imagine either one of these men giving up. You could drive a truck over either one and they would take it with stoic, angry silence, and they’d probably get up for more to boot. No, the only ending I can envision is Cena, unused to the sheer violence of Cactus, would eventually succumb to blood loss and pass out, and no matter how much Foley would pound or stab his fallen foe he would not rise to say those words. Eventually the referee would have to stop the match and award Foley the victory, though Cena would retain his honor. My god, there would be some wild violence and storytelling up to that point though…
Mazza: Now this is a match that I can dig. When it comes to jobbing to the stars, none do it better than Mick Foley. He could actually be the perfect guy to complement Cena’s rough-housing style and in addition, he could put John through hardcore hell, giving him that extra credibility he has given the likes of Triple H and Randy Orton in the past. The more I think about it, the more I see them gelling. Cena has always done well with the less polished (may not be the “mot juste” for Mick but I digress) guys and it could be a partnership that really clicks. So where’d the problem then?
The problem with this match is the gimmick chosen. I really don’t like I Quit matches at all. For me the whole rigmarole of asking etc just ruins the flow of the bout. I mean it can lend itself to older guys with limitations relying on putting on a show more than actual moves (see SummerSlam 06) but if I want to see two studs in their prime, this definitely wouldn’t be the gimmick for me. Some kind of hardcore stip would be better when Mick is involved and I would probably have gone with a Street Fight here. As for Cena, he has always stood out for me in Last Man Standing matches which could have been another option. As for who goes over, there is only one choice where Foley is involved!
Skulduggery: To the (at the time of writing) unknown selector of this match, you are a wise, wise wrestling fan. Cena calls it quits less frequently than Brett Favre, and Cactus Jack epitomizes the “do whatever it takes to win” mantra. This match would not end easily, and I fear the bloodlessness we’ve been so accustomed to in recent years would be a mere sight in the rear-view mirror before a definitive conclusion could be established.
We’ve all seen the amount of punishment that Cactus Jack has taken while still putting up a fight (be it in an “I Quit” match or not; consider No Way Out 2000). On the other hand, John Cena was taken to hell and back by the likes of Randy Orton and JBL, but refused to quit. I have to believe that the only way this match could end was a la Flair/Foley at SummerSlam ’06. Foley only quit when someone he cared about was threatened by a deranged Flair carrying a barbed wired instrument. Because I can’t see Cena’s current character engaging in those kinds of barbaric antics, I have to select Cactus Jack as the one who would come out on top in this fight (albeit by an eyelash). Cactus' sick mind knows no boundaries. This one could easily exceed 30 minutes, though, because Cena wouldn`t cede easily.
MachoMourn: On paper, this match has the look of a dream match that has the qualities to be a classic. But to this humble man, it’s one I wish never to see in my dreams, not, in real life.
In his prime, Cactus was a psychological master of getting his opponent to respond to the violence he gives out. He would make a man go as far as he had to, and in doing so, never quit in response. Look at the matches as Mankind; The Rock; the one against HHH a year later, and the HiaC that ended his “career”. Those do not include his Japan work, his ECW bottle barrage, and the Randy Orton IC title match. Oh, did I mention the HiaC with Taker where it took; throwing him off the cell, through the cell, onto tacks and a tombstone to pin him? Even in that pin he was trying to kick out. The meaning?
He does not quit.
Now you get John Cena; the poster boy for never give up, never surrender. The thing is, would Cena be able to do what no other man was able to, get Jack to say I Quit, without a recording?
That’s the point. I think when pressed, Cena couldn’t be outright devious while Cactus would go heel when needed and go as far as use people to force an “I Quit.” He could grab any member of those watching. If it was Lillian Garcia, Cena’s father… a kid. And force Cena to say I Quit to save them.
Cactus would win. Not because he would physically beat Cena to a pulp, even though he’d try and enjoy doing so. I just think when Cactus gets frustrated, all hell would break loose.
Lunchbox1981: Despite my admiration for both wrestlers I have to say that putting these two together in a match against one another never really would’ve occurred to me. However now that this “Dream Match” of sorts has been proposed and with the perfect stipulation added to it upon further thought I have to say it makes all the sense in the world and is something I would’ve loved to have seen. Now in a straight up one on one match I have to admit it would be anything but a mat classic, but these two great storytellers inside and outside of the ring is what would carry it through and make the match appealing to the common fan no matter what. Adding an “I Quit” stipulation into the mix is just the icing on the cake.
We know what Mick Foley is willing to put his body through and the lengths he’ll go to entertain the fans so any match without a lot of rules fought in the hardcore style is right in his wheelhouse. John Cena on the other hand can wrestle a wider variety of matches with a great number of people and flourish. That includes a more hardcore style of wrestling where he has proven more the once the ability to hold his own in that kind of setting.
It would be bloody, it would be violent, it would be brutal but more than anything it would be memorable and one for the ages.
The only problem I’d see with this match would be the ability to pick a winner. Considering both of these fan favorites willingness to do the J-O-B for another wrestler and put them over huge at their own expense the result could really go either way. When the final bell rang though and the winner was announced John Cena would be the one to come out on top.
I just can’t shake the vision in my mind of hearing John Cena’s music blare through the arena with his hand raised high in the air and a bloody and beaten Foley rolling around on the floor with a microphone lying by his side after just receiving the F-U onto a pile of thumb tacks.
So there you have it the first match is in the bag and it was a close call with the panel only giving a slight lead of 4-3 and therefore the victory to John Cena. Did we get it right readers or should have it gone the other way? Anyway it is time to end todays entry so I will see you all back here tomorrow when we take a look at TripleR's choice.
Last edited by zzzorf; 10-05-2012 at 08:11 PM.
Man of 1,000 Columns
Now this is a stacked set of "mates" this time huh! Great to be a part of this series again, and as always I'm looking forward to seeing what everybody has to say about these matches. Surprised really to see this one so close, I mean really Mazza had it dead on- Foley put people over. Love this series my friend, and mine is up tomorrow, so yay!
I'm a Vince McMahon guy
Thanks again for asking me to help you out with this zzzorf. I've dabbled in a little bit of everything during the 11 years that I've been posting on message boards except column writing. So I was honored that you asked me and happy to help and try my hand at it here by adding my own little write-ups to your wonderful column. It really is an impressive group of people that you've gathered for this one. I am looking forward to reading every match in the series.
Man, good work everyone.
Some will be longer than others from me, but this one caught my eye.
Hope to be involved with some more in the future.
Damn script writing. So much writing for me in the next few days.
Ignorance is curable, but stupid is forever - Damien Sandow
Great start. I'm a bit humbled to finally find out my company, to be honest.
I love that it went to a 4-3 decision, because this is a match that would be ridiculously close. It took a lot of stewing in my cranium before I finally picked Cactus. As was mentioned, neither of these guys ever quit. Looks like Macho and I had some pretty similar thinking. To be terribly cliche, great minds think alike, Macho!
Looking forward to seeing who picked each of the other matches.
On the next one, you simply must get Newt back on board. His answers were by far the best this series has seen...
Other than that, this is a great start. Very interesting to see other people's answers, though I can't imagine how Foley would ever quit! Excited for the rest of the series and very glad to see this back.
Very interesting and fun read. And a great match up to choose to start the series off. It is not some match that immedietely jumps to mind but you add the stipulation and it becomes very obvious. I agree with most here...it's not possible to imagine either of the two to say 'I quit'. Lunchbox81 was a unique choice to bring to the series, a very clever choice on your part, zzzorf. The cast of the series looks a very wide and different one. Great stuff!
The King of Stats
TripleR: The Foley putting people over idea is what I went with to. I don't know if people let their Cena hate get to them or what but it always seemed that he would be the logical choice to win. At least people gave him a fighting chance.
Lunchbox1981: It is my honour to have you as part of this. As I said in our messages, you actually have a chance to become the star of this series, your responses were that of an experienced writer.
MachoMourn: Thank you for being a part of this.
Skulduggery: You might be humbled by your company by I chose to include you as I believe you can hang with the bigger names.
Mizfan: Newt's answers in series one were something special weren't they. I tried to get him in season 2 but he was busy and I didn't ask him this time around.
TheMaskedNewton: Yes I am clever aren't I. Thank you as always for the read and feed
So here we are after a massive day yesterday of hardcore action it is now time for us to slow things down a bit and give everybody a stretch. Today we look at the match put forward by TRIPLER.
TripleR: So this one for me is a wrestling fan’s wet dream. In one corner you have William Regal- a well schooled, hard hitting, submission specialist who can work as stiff as anybody in the ring. In the other corner you have the Samoan Submission Machine- Samoa Joe. Joe is another man that can beat the crap out of you with stiff shots, or lock you in the Kokina Clutch and make you tap out. If you truly want to see a fight, this is one that would be worth every penny.
I don’t see any bells or whistles around this one either. I can almost see this as if it were the end of the first Rocky movie. You have two great competitors who step into the ring with each other just to see who the better man is. They’d probably do it in some dimly lit gymnasium, after everybody has left, with no one to witness it but each other and the spiders hanging in the corner in their webs. You have two men here who probably don’t know how to tap out, so having a match where one of them has to adds a completely different dimension to it. In the end though, I give this one to experience, with William Regal eventually making Joe tap out to the Regal Stretch, and both men shake hands afterwards. I get chills thinking about this one.
Mizfan: This sounds fun as hell, quite the hard hitting technical masterpiece if given a bit of time. Unfortunately there doesn’t seem to be much time for either man these days on their respective shows, so this isn’t nearly as exciting as it might have sounded a few years ago. Still, the beauty of this column is that one can turn back the clock however much one wants. The reason behind this match? Cultural differences, of course! William Regal is offended by Joe’s poor manners! Not using a salad fork and what not. So, like any good English man, Regal smacks Joe with brass knuckles during a dinner party! From there it escalates accordingly until we get this little beauty of a match up. The technical sequences would be impressive, and the tough-as-nails Regal attitude is perfect for absorbing Joe’s brutal offense, and when the positions reverse Joe would have enough moment to power through the devastating hard strikes that Regal would inevitably throw. I think it’s in the bag that eventually this one would go to Joe, however, as the man has at one time carried a company on his back while Regal, for all his talent, is a certified midcarder for life. Joe with the Coquina Clutch, though surely Regal would curse his savage eyes before tapping.
Mazza: As someone who only watches TNA once in a blue moon, I haven’t seen a great deal of Samoa Joe in action. I have never been 100% convinced he is as good as some people making him out to be but there is no doubt that he has some interesting offence. Regal, on the other hand, I am a big fan of. I think the WWE has missed opportunities to try and push him in the past (although he has to take all the blame for his Wellness Violation whilst reigning King of the Ring) and they really missed out on making him predominantly a submission wrestler. I think there could be some decent chemistry between the two guys and it would definitely be interesting to see how they’d mesh.
As for the gimmick, I think it could well be the best choice for these two. As I said, Regal’s talents as a submission specialist have been underutilised over the years and making people tap is clearly one of the key assets of Joe’s game. As for who goes over, again this is a no brainer to me. Much like Foley yesterday, Regal has developed a knack for making people rather than himself (although unfortunately lower down the card than Mick) so it would have to be Joe for the win. Not without the Englishman really putting him through the ringer and stretching out those moobs first though.
Skulduggery: When comparing this to the Cactus Jack vs. John Cena “I Quit” match, I imagine both would be tight contests, but for different reasons. While Cactus and Cena would have a hell of a time making their opponent say “I Quit”, I don’t necessarily see Regal and Joe as two guys who never tap out or anything like that. However, although Regal and Joe both have such a varied arsenal of submission moves, I assume they each have counters to said submission moves.
This match would be such a polar opposite of Cena vs. Cactus in style, yet both matches would be, in their own ways, very exciting to view. Despite fear of disgracing the WWE, I’ll pick Samoa Joe as the victor in this one. Don’t get me wrong, Regal’s one bad son of a bitch, and this would be far from an easy victory for his TNA counterpart. However, I have seen Regal do battle with other submission specialists on multiple occasions, and the Brit has tapped on multiple occasions. Joe would be hurting after, no doubt, but I think he would narrowly achieve the W here.
MachoMourn: William Regal in the ring and on the mic is one of the truly unbelievable talents as a technician while Samoa Joe is also.
I would love to see this match happen, but, something seems missing. Joe’s style was fresh 7 years ago and now, even though he’s good, I wouldn’t give him the motivation in a lot of his matches. Regal, the consummate professional so I would believe he’d get real match with effort out of Joe.
When breaking down the match, move for move, Joe works best with smaller wrestlers, not men taller. Regal is not known for his agility so I really believe in an aesthetic level; Joe would have to bump for Regal. This is probably the worst part of the whole thing.
Not for the outcome, I believe Regal would have to lose. I mean, in no scenario that I see Joe tapping or being pinned by Regal. The end sequence though would be sweet to watch.
Lunchbox1981: I’ve always been a fan of mat based wrestling and the submission style so this kind of gimmick match has always ranked amongst my favorites. We’ve seen many high quality and memorable submission matches over the years and if these two ever got in the ring with one another and mixed it up stretching each other until you could hear ever bone in their bodies crackle, snap and break I am sure they’d earn a place high on a lot of peoples all-time best of lists.
Not only are both Regal & Joe expert submission wrestlers but there styles complement each other in a number of ways. Both are stiff and hard hitting pull no punches type of wrestlers that say very little on the mic and prefer to let their actions in the ring speak do the talking for them.
I imagine that this would be a long, grind it out kind of match that’s fans of this style of wrestling would love, but casual fans might not enjoy as much because there wouldn’t be a lot of high spots or flashy maneuvers. Just two guys slowly and methodically trying to breakdown the other.
After a brutal 30+ minute session of expert submission wrestling with these guys matching each other hold for hold the younger Joe would prove to be a little too much for the older experienced veteran. Locking up Regal so tight in the middle of the ring that he’d have no choice but to tap out.
zzzorf: Damn Trips are you channelling your inner zzzorf or something. This sounds eerily similar to the matches I had put up in the first two series, just with different wresters chucked into each corner. Even the stipulation looks pretty cookie cutter for that type of match that these types of wrestlers would have. That though is where the beauty of the matter is, there is no need to overdo the stipulation with these guys, just cater to their specialities and let them loose.
The question is though do I like the look of the match? The answer is unfortunately no, this doesn’t really do much for me personally. I just don’t see these two in the ring together as something to excite me, which can be perceived as entirely weird coming from someone who in the previous series has been totally for these types of matches.
My problem with Samoa Joe could come down to ignorance mostly. While I have seen numerous matches involving him it is mostly against X-Division wrestlers or those of the big and powerful variety. I have never really seen him in that submission brawl, even the matches with Kurt seemed more of the X-Division kind. To put him in this type of match I would prefer to see him against someone who could move around more closer to his ability, something I believe Regal lacks. As to Regal no matter how much I respect him and what not, the only person I really want to see him wrestle when thinking dream matches would be Finlay and that’s something we have seen time and time again.
Mind you I am not saying this match will be bad, it’s more that I just don’t really see it. Also it might also be that no matter which way I look at it I just can’t ever see Regal beating Samoa by submission giving Joe the victory here.
Well Trips your pick for Regal to win is the only thing that saved him from losing in a white wash with the final score being 6-1 in favour of Samoa Joe. So readers what do you think of this particular match-up? Did we all unfairly dismiss ChrisBear's favourite wrestler off as no real hope against Samoa Joe or did we get it completely right? That is all for today so see you back here tomorrow when we take a look at the choice of MIZFAN.
EDIT: This went down on Twitter not long after posting this column.
So there we have it, proof that we got it pretty much correct.
Last edited by zzzorf; 10-06-2012 at 07:28 PM.
Ah William Regal responded! I'm a nerd....
It's not that Regal's not awesome, mind you. He totally, completely is. But he's got that HBK/Jericho type thing where losing makes absolutely no impact on his greatness, so he's the logical choice to take the fall.
Great answers from all involved. Looking forward to tomorrow, it should be interesting...
That's awesome that Regal responded. (Guess Mizfan isn't the only nerd!
Still very much enjoying seeing what everyone else wrote and each co-writer's pick as the victor.