Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 2101112
Results 441 to 476 of 476

Thread: Puroresu General Discussion

  1. #441
    Queen of Extreme Irishsara's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    5,489
    I havent caught up yet. BUT NJPW just spoiled me. The company promoted an ad on my twitter which showed the result literally 2 hours before i planned to watch it.

  2. #442
    Senior Member Oliver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    1,233
    That's why you need to stay of the net until you watch these days, sadly. I had the same thing happen to me on my Facebook for the semis.

    Super into Okada vs Shibata. NJPW has clearly settled on Shibata having a wee little push to the main event scene as a water tester, in my opinion. I would be surprised if he won the belt, but can see them holding off and him earning a couple of opportunities at it first. Shibata having been the third musketeer in the 00s and then buggering off, before coming back and earning his way up the totem pole paying off his debt to NJPW is quite a nice little story, in a way. Makes some sense that they would just tease that he might not (yet) be on that level.

  3. #443
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,725
    I was actually hoping he'd challenge Naito instead, simply because I would like his eventual IWGP Heavyweight Title victory to be a big moment in his first shot at it. I disagree with Mizzie that they don't see him as a possible face of the company, but I really don't think they'd put the strap on him yet. I'd love to be wrong, though. Should be an awesome match!

  4. #444
    Senior Member Oliver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    1,233
    BOSJ looks like it's going to have some real madness going on this year. Block A, especially, is laden - Ospreay, Ricochet, Dragon Lee, Hiromu. Any combination of those four should be phenomenal. On top of that, Marty Scurll is in it!

  5. #445
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,185
    Hoping Liger goes on a run considering its his last one

  6. #446
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,725
    I was hoping Takahashi and Ospreay would be in separate brackets and not face each other until Dominion. I find it interesting that Takahashi/Lee and Ospreay/Ricochet are happening so early on in the tourney. Suzuki-Gun having four members in is ass.

  7. #447
    Senior Member Oliver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    1,233
    Hiromu and Kushida absolutely killing each other at Dominion. Hiromu has the more interesting opponents for defences after this, based on BOSJ.

  8. #448
    Senior Member Oliver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    1,233
    Meltzer's going to need a new ranking system.

  9. #449
    Remember me? Degenerate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    507
    Dave hasn't tweeted for six hours. Someone needs to call in a wellness check for him.

    I was at the show tonight. I'm physically and emotionally exhausted. What an amazing event.


    2016 Columns Forum Classic Champion

    (Thanks to YourAyatollah for the belt)

  10. #450
    Remember me? Degenerate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    507
    Dave Meltzer's ratings for Dominion are in:

    • David Finlay, Shota Umino and Tomoyuki Oka vs. Hirai Kawato, Katsuya Kitamura and Tetsuhiro Yagi: 2.75
    • Tiger Mask, Tiger Mask W, Togi Makabe and Yuji Nagata vs. Hiroyoshi Tenzan, Jushin Thunder Liger, Manabu Nakanishi and Satoshi Kojima: 2.75
    • LIJ vs. Bullet Club vs. Chaos vs Suzuki-gun vs. Taguchi Japan: 1.5 for Chaos vs. Bullet Club, No rating for Suzuki Gun vs. Chaos, 1.5 for Taguchi Japan vs. Suzuki Gun, 2.5 for LIJ vs. Taguchi Japan
    • The Young Bucks vs. Roppongi Vice: 4.0
    • Guerrillas of Destiny vs. War Machine: 3.5
    • Cody vs. Michael Elgin: 3.5
    • Kushida vs. Hiromu Takahashi: 4.75
    • Minoru Suzuki vs. Hirooki Goto: 3.5
    • Hiroshi Tanahashi vs. Tetsuya Naito: 4.5
    • Kazuchika Okada vs. Kenny Omega: 6.25


    I basically agree with all the ratings. I probably would have given the Young Bucks vs. Roppongi Vice a 4.25 and Tanahashi vs. Naito a 4.75, but that's really splitting hairs since both of those matches were tremendous in their own right. There's probably even an argument to be made about Takahashi / KUSHIDA getting a 5-star match.

    I was expecting a repeat 6-star rating for Okada vs. Omega, but he actually broke his own ratings system again. I didn't think he would go over six ever again. Craziness.

    EDIT: Someone copied a quote from Meltzer explaining his reasoning behind the 6.25 rating, I'm guessing from the newsletter:

    After their 1/4 match, which was one of the best matches I’ve ever seen, I watched the Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada match from 1994, which many call the best match ever. Obviously that is a subjective subject and there are tons of matches that can fit into that category, but more people I know would say Misawa vs. Kawada then any other. I would say the two were comparable. They were different. Misawa vs. Kawada was more a fight and more heated, like an incredible sports contest. Omega vs. Okada I was more spectacular when it came to moves, as we’re 23 years later but every bit as dramatic, which is ultimately the goal. What I can say is that while this match was not as heated as either of those two matches, it was more intense, featured better selling, was more drama and told a better story than either. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion on the greatest match they’ve ever seen. This was better than those two matches that I thought were the best ones I’d ever seen. It was the two best wrestlers in the world at this point in time, both in the best match of their lives. We are seeing history with this Okada championship run and this Omega vs. Okada program. This is the modern version of the 1989 Flair-Steamboat series, which consisted of three major national shows (they also did dozens of house show matches, most of which were close to the level, at least one of which was above the level, of the three national matches, which is something Omega and Okada didn’t do). Omega and Okada are right now scheduled for three matches this year, and after two, they are well ahead in comparison, even factoring in the time and place elements. I don’t know how you could top it, except some day, like everything, it will happen.
    I can see where he's coming from. A lot of people are going to disagree, I'm sure. I'll forever be biased since I was there for this current match. I wonder how we'll all view this match 5, 10 or even 20 years from now.
    Last edited by Degenerate; 06-15-2017 at 03:26 AM.


    2016 Columns Forum Classic Champion

    (Thanks to YourAyatollah for the belt)

  11. #451
    Senior Member Oliver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    1,233
    I think he's right on Okada/Omega - it was better than the first, for me, and if he thinks it's better than the first too he has to go and rate it above that doesn't he?

    Interested to see where they take this in a third battle - do they stick with 60 or do away with the time limit? Or do they play it like they did with Punk/Joe III and tease doing away with the time limit only for something to happen that shortens the bout? Interesting situation to see develop.

  12. #452
    Remember me? Degenerate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    507
    I never expected them matching their Wrestle Kingdom 11 efforts, much less surpassing them, so I don't know what to think anymore. Whenever it does happen, the hype is going to be off the charts.


    2016 Columns Forum Classic Champion

    (Thanks to YourAyatollah for the belt)

  13. #453
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,185
    I think the third match happens at the next Wrestle Kingdom and i think its 30 mins plus of nonstop action.

    I LOVED the Jr title match and the Jr tag title match. Great performances by Hiromu, KUSHIDA and the Bucks.

  14. #454
    The Brain
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    3,734
    Putting aside that I think the 6.25 thing is silly, I do struggle to see Omega/Okada II as a contender for best match ever. It's a really good match, no mistake, but it feels far from perfect. You've got Omega working over Okada's knee for 20 minutes which then is forgotten about and goes nowhere. You've got an hours worth of big moves, so many big moves that didn't end the match that eventually I felt like they stopped mattering. And how many times can you see Omega beat down Okada, only for Okada to suddenly jump up and hit a dropkick to reset the momentum? I swear that happened at least 4 times in the second half of the match, maybe more. The last time I predicted it out loud as a joke, only to see them repeat the exact same spot again. I dunno, I did like it but it had some issues and I definitely wouldn't put it as better than their fantastic first match. I would love for them to surprise people and keep their final match at around 30 minutes or less and see if they can tell a tighter story on top of all their other strengths, of which they have so many.

  15. #455
    Remember me? Degenerate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    507
    I'm still trying to process whether this match is in the running to be "the best ever" or not, whatever that means. I do feel like this match topped their first encounter, but I'm pretty sure I'm biased since I was in the crowd. It's tough to compare because the excellence of the first match sort of came out of nowhere, as in people knew it would be good since it was the Wrestle Kingdom main event but not that good. The second time around, it was really tough to think they could even match that first encounter, so seeing that they managed to get another classic as good as or better than the first plays into that rating, in my opinion at least.

    I can see the whole issue of Omega working on Okada's knee only to have that be entirely forgotten being something to bring this match down a notch. But I can also see it as part of the story. The reason Omega did some work on the knee was because Okada tweaked it himself after that dive outside, not that it was Omega's game plan. He saw the opening and tried to attack it but when it didn't work he abandoned it and went back to what he planned to do. I might be grasping at straws on that one, admittedly, but I can't think of any other reason why two big-time players would have such a gaping hole in a match of this caliber.

    I also felt like the big moves didn't get to the point where they didn't matter at all. For the last half of the match, whenever a big move was hit, they played it so that they looked super-exhausted and couldn't capitalize on it. That made a huge, huge difference to me. It wasn't like other matches where the big move happened and the person went for the pin immediately only to get the false finish over and over again. The only time I remember that happening was when Omega finally hit the One Winged Angel on Okada, only to have Okada's foot on the rope.

    I guess in all of this, what I can say is that interpretations of wrestling are very different and vary from person to person. It's been hilarious to see people get all worked up online over Meltzer's personal rating and analysis of the match.


    2016 Columns Forum Classic Champion

    (Thanks to YourAyatollah for the belt)

  16. #456
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,185
    New Japan has their style and as such, the selling all the way through isn't going to happen, its more about esclation, counters, hitting your big moves until that finishes the guy.. I can remember Nakamura hitting 4 Boma ye's in a big match just because that's his big move to win. Okada has to go for the dropkick no matter what cause that's his transition. I did feel they sold exhaustion well. Omega collapsing on rainmaker attempt was brilliant.

    I also rate this match higher than the first one because i felt this one told a better story. the first one was meh to me except the last 15 minutes.

    I've never seen a 60 minute match at this pace either.

  17. #457
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,725
    As you all know, I rate the first match as the greatest of all time. I see Mizfan's point, but I think Degenerate has the right take on it. While it was something I thought about as the match went on, it isn't something that took away from it to me, at least. As I have stated on the audio review and on Twitter, this match overtook the first when Omega collapsed and Okada went flying across the ring. 6.25? I don't know man, it was better, but so much better that he has to break his scale again? Not mad at it, but don't see the point. If you can have dozens of five star matches, but clearly know some were better than others, why can't you do the same with six stars? Also, why does it have to be 6.25 & not, like, 6.01? Anyway, I believe I've seen the three greatest matches of all time since August of last year and Omega was in all three. He's definitely the greatest big match performer in the world right now and Okada is obviously right behind him. Or maybe I just love NJPW too much right now to be unbiased about it; I don't know, but it is how I feel.

    Also, let's give a little love Naito and Tanahashi's way. Another five star match and in any other year, the two matches they have had against each other would be in serious match of the year contention. You include Naito's match with Elgin and that dude has had a fantastic run this year also, plus he's probably winning G1 for the second time in 4 years.
    Last edited by XanMan; 06-17-2017 at 01:50 AM.

  18. #458
    Remember me? Degenerate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    507
    It's a testament to New Japan that both Tanahashi vs. Naito matches were not even the best matches on their respective cards. When I think that Tanahashi is 40 years old and still looking like he does and putting on performances like he does, injuries and all, my mind is blown. I'm happy he's still out there giving those performances.

    KUSHIDA and Takahashi is also another match that deserves love and attention. It's one of those matches where I felt like both winner and loser actually came out looking stronger than they went in. I kind of wish it was done anywhere other than Osaka, though, because KUSHIDA got crapped on pretty badly by the LOJ-loving Osaka crowd.


    2016 Columns Forum Classic Champion

    (Thanks to YourAyatollah for the belt)

  19. #459
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,725
    Well, to be fair, so did Tana and it was for their non-heroic actions, in my opinion. I still haven't watched that entire match for reasons I mentioned on the review. Maybe I should watch those three matches again tonight; that would automatically put me in a great mood for tomorrow, I think. Here are my top 5 matches this year so far (and it's not even the end of June yet!)

    1. Omega vs. Okada 2
    2. Omega vs. Okada 1
    3. Dragon Lee vs. Hiromu Takahashi from New Beginning in Osaka
    4. Shibata vs. Okada
    5. Tanahashi vs Naito Dominion

    3 and 4 could switch around for me and 5 is just slightly ahead of Naito vs. Elgin, the Las Vegas Street Fight from ROH 15th Anniversary Show, Naito vs Tanahashi, Shibata vs Goto, and KUSHIDA vs. Takahashi all from Wrestle Kingdom.

  20. #460
    The Brain
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    3,734
    I have a really hard time ranking Shibata/Okada. The action is SO good, but it's pretty much impossible for me to keep watching after the headbutt, knowing what's going on as Okada continues to hit Shibata in the head.

  21. #461
    Remember me? Degenerate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    507
    Xan, I'm curious where you'd rank Okada vs. Suzuki from New Beginning In Sapporo. I really enjoyed that match. It would definitely be in my top 10.

    I believe in a few hours the participants of this year's G1 Climax will be announced. Can't wait to see who they'll have.

    EDIT: The names have been announced!

    • Hiroshi Tanahashi
    • Togi Makabe
    • Michael Elgin
    • Kazuchika Okada
    • Hirooki Goto
    • Tomohiro Ishii
    • Toru Yano
    • YOSHI-HASHI
    • Kenny Omega
    • Bad Luck Fale
    • Tama Tonga
    • Tetsuya Naito
    • SANADA
    • EVIL
    • Satoshi Kojima
    • Yuji Nagata
    • Juice Robinson
    • Minoru Suzuki
    • Zack Sabre, Jr.
    • Kota Ibushi


    That's a pretty big list of names there. Excited to see Ibushi there (announced as Ibushi, not Tiger Mask W) and I hope to see him in a tournament match in the Osaka date which I'll be going to. I'm curious how the other newcomers like Juice and Sabre Jr. do this year. It was also announced that this would be Nagata's last G1 in his career. I thought that Cody would be included, so it seems like his upcoming match with Okada will be a short-lived program. I wonder who will get the proverbial rub during this year's tournament. I would love to see someone like SANADA get a good run.
    Last edited by Degenerate; 06-20-2017 at 08:43 AM.


    2016 Columns Forum Classic Champion

    (Thanks to YourAyatollah for the belt)

  22. #462
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,725
    We discussed that match a little bit before Deg. You liked it a lot more than I did. It wasn't a bad match, but I didn't find it great, either. On the standard rating scale, it would probably be 3, maybe 3 1/4 stars for me, which puts it outside my top 20, at the very least. I simply didn't buy that Okada could be in the knee bar for that long and not submit; and even if I could buy that, I can't buy he would have been able to hit his dropkick or get enough torque on the Rainmaker to beat Suzuki with his leg that poorly off. It's Okada's only mis-step this year for me; I'd even put his matches against Fale and Tiger Mask W above it.

    I'm surprised Davey and CODY aren't in the G1; especially the latter, as the Nightmare has been rumored to be in it for months. I, too, am excited, however, that Ibushi is in it. If we get the expected main event at Wrestle Kingdom of Naito vs Okada, I expect Ibushi vs Omega to also be a featured match.

  23. #463
    Senior Member Oliver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    1,233
    Could Cody being out of the G1 mean anything for the American shows? Just speculating here, of course, and not saying he's winning the title - just that it does seem very odd. Unless he just had other dates booked or something?

    Lots to look forward to there - hoping Ibushi vs Omega happens. I imagine they'll keep Okada and Omega apart in the blocks so that any meeting they have is special, and personally I hope they also keep Okada and Tanahashi apart, although the heavyweight champ vs the IC champ could be an interesting storytelling point. I just don't really want to see them touch each other for a while.

    Possible winners? It's tough to look past a name like Naito or Omega. I'm hoping for good showings from ZSJ and Ibushi, and hopefully they are blocked together so we get them up against each other too.

  24. #464
    The Brain
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    3,734
    Ibushi and Suzuki being in is pure gold. Will be interested to see what Sabre can do, I've been a little down on him but he's won me over more this year.

    For my two cents, Okada/Suzuki is my favorite IWGP title match of the year so far, just a hair over Okada/Omega I. I consider both fantastic MOTY contenders.

  25. #465
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,185
    I think Okada winning is a possible scenario where he then calls out Omega for a rematch.. If you've read interviews, Okada says he needs to beat Omega so unless he does it at the G1 I can see his pride demanding a match.

  26. #466
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,725
    Quote Originally Posted by mix can

    For my two cents, Okada/Suzuki is my favorite IWGP title match of the year so far, just a hair over Okada/Omega I. I consider both fantastic MOTY contenders.
    I don't think you and I have disagreed on a match more, other than Okada/Omega II. But, like you said on your show this week, the NJPW main event style is not really your type of wrestling.

  27. #467
    The Brain
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    3,734
    Yeah, that's the root of the issue. The matches that appeal most to me from New Japan are often different than the ones which appeal to others, like Suzuki/Okada this year and Naito/Shibata last year.

    LK, does Okada say why he has a need to beat Omega? He beat him decisively at Wrestle Kingdom and was seemingly about to beat him decisively again at the end of their rematch. I can see Omega winning G1 so that he is in a stronger position to challenge.

  28. #468
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,185
    https://twitter.com/AbbeyA/status/874515478026342401

    Not sure if the above works but basically Okada thought it was done after the dome match but he doesn't like that the second match went to a draw. He feels it doesn't show that he's better.

    I'm not saying he's a lock to win but i could see it and i think if someone beats him in the G1, he'll challenge that person even if he wins the finals..

    I really don't think Naito is winning.

  29. #469
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    1,725
    First of all, Mizzie, sorry about the name thing. My phone autocorrected it and I didn't catch that. Secondly, "decisively"? Really? Cleanly, sure, but it took him 4 of his finishers and 46 minutes to beat him the first time out and the second time out he couldn't even crawl over to make a cover with like a minute to go in the match after he hit his, what, 6th or 7th Rainmaker? Plus, the way Omega survived the onslaught earlier in the match, what's to say he didn't have one more kick-out left in him? Nah, I don't think one pinfall in 106 minutes of wrestling is anywhere near decisive. This match did go exactly the way I wanted it to go; just happened 7 months too soon in my opinion. A rematch at the Dome would be great, but I think it's happening at KOPW; I just wonder where they go if Omega actually wins, because I do think Naito wins G1 and I have felt in my gut for months--even as others have been predicting Okada/Naito at Wrestle Kingdom for months--that the Omega/Naito rematch from G1 last year is the match we're actually getting. I just have no idea what Okada would do at the Dome if that happens.

  30. #470
    The Brain
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    3,734
    Haha, I thought the name thing was a joke. No worries.

    Maybe decisively is a little strong, but he still beat the guy the first time with no controversy, even if it took awhile. What I'm getting at is at no point has Omega really had any advantage in this feud, except for the idea that if he could just hit the OWA away from the ropes he could get the win. I guess I can buy that as the remaining impetus for their feud, but I would have rather seen the end of the 2nd match reversed with Omega seemingly closing in on a win at the end. Would have hooked me into a third match a little more, personally.

  31. #471
    Senior Member Oliver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    1,233
    The winner of the G1 gets a contract, don't they. Has a champion ever won that contract then lost the title, only to cash the contract in at WK for a rematch?

    Meltzer did say they were planning on three Okada/Omega matches this year. I'm just wondering if he meant 2017 or Jan 4th to Jan 4th.

  32. #472
    The Brain
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    3,734
    Good question, I've been a little confused myself about the logistics of the champ winning G1. And I always assume when talking New Japan, the calendar begins and ends on the 4th. When does Omega's contract come up again? I think I remember him signing a one year deal but I'm not 100% sure.

  33. #473
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,185
    yes he signed another one year deal apparently even tho New Japan is giving out more multi yrs.. There's not many big shows before WK and after the G1.. I mean you have Destruction, King of Pro Wrestling and Power Struggle. Last year we got 1 IWGP title defense and 1 G1 winner defense.. The rest were headlined by IC title shots or Junior title...

    So I could see Omega vs. Okada at King of Pro Wrestling.

  34. #474
    Remember me? Degenerate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Location
    Japan
    Posts
    507
    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    The winner of the G1 gets a contract, don't they. Has a champion ever won that contract then lost the title, only to cash the contract in at WK for a rematch?
    I asked this question when I was learning about the G1 Climax tournament for the first time last year. Only two reigning champions have won the G1 Climax (Keiji Mutoh in 1995, Kensuke Sasaki in 2000). From what the Almighty Wiki says, Mutoh remained champ until the January 4, 1996 Tokyo Dome show where he lost to Nobuhiko Takada. Sasaki's journey was different and confusing to me. Wiki says "On October 9, 2000, Sasaki surrendered the IWGP title after he lost to Toshiaki Kawada in a non-title match at an All Japan vs. New Japan event called Do Judge. In a tournament final, Sasaki regained the title, defeating Kawada, at the January 4, 2001, Tokyo Dome show." I don't know anything about that era in New Japan so I have no clue why he forfeited the title, and why there was a tournament afterwards. Maybe someone who knows more about this era can chime in.

    Besides that, I hope that Omega vs. Okada happens at Power Struggle, just because I'm selfish and want to see it again live.

    EDIT: I just saw this tweet containing an update on Shibata by the man himself: https://twitter.com/STRIGGA/status/877949879116472320. This is kind of hard to read
    Last edited by Degenerate; Yesterday at 01:37 AM.


    2016 Columns Forum Classic Champion

    (Thanks to YourAyatollah for the belt)

  35. #475
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    3,185
    To realize he had problems with his eyes around the start of his career is crazy.

  36. #476
    Senior Member Oliver's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Posts
    1,233
    Yeah, made me really sad did that.

    At this point in time I'm just hoping that in 2/3 years we get a shot of Shibata walking to the ring - not to wrestle, not to do anything, just alive and well enough to walk.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •