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Thread: Comic Book tv/movie thread

  1. #1681
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    So there's a new Thor movie out soon. I have not seen the others but think the trailer looks good. Do I need to have seen the others or are these things reasonably standalone?
    Yes, and you probably will also need to watch the Avengers, Age of Ultron, and Civil War too.

    Basically the entire Marvel Movies

  2. #1682
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    I feel like Marvel movies stand by themselves decently. Even if there is a moment that isn't 100% clear, it's pretty easy to deduce in general terms whatever "the story so far" is. Like the comic books they take their material from, they are pretty well designed to be picked up at any place, at least in my opinion.

  3. #1683
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    Hmm... split opinion there. I may try and see it anyway and since I'm on Limitless just leave if it turns out that you do need to know the full backstory. Realistically, I'm not going to sit through all of the Marvel movies before this comes out, though I might have made a specific effort to watch another of the Thor movies if that would have been particularly helpful.

    But yeah, I've missed more than I have seen, so if I had to watch them all then in order to catch-up I'd have two Thor's, Three Captain America's, Two Iron Man's, Age of Ultron, and the second Guardians of the Galaxy, not to mention some of the other stuff I'm forgetting. And I'm just not motivated enough to do that - certainly not in such a short space of time.

    Might be an interesting experiment to see how I get on.

  4. #1684
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    I checked out of the Marvel stuff with Age of Ultron and Ant-Man. The former was bitterly disappointing - and to my mind the worst superhero movie made this century, relative to resource and expectation - and the latter was mind-crushingly generic. Since then I've genuinely found it hard to get excited by any of them. I even found Guardians 2 ingratiating because of its need to cram a punch line into literally every single scene of the film. Hemsworth's talk of "encouraged improv" makes me fear Thor Ragnarok might be headed the same way.

    I'll be checking it out, but not in any real hurry.
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  5. #1685
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    I quite enjoyed Age of Ultron, though admittedly I'm a major fan of James Spader and thought his performance out-stripped the writing. The scene where he becomes self aware was very well done. Thought Ant-Man was good for a laugh, though I suppose if you don't like the Marvel style it won't sit well with you regardless.

  6. #1686
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    If people aren't that taken with Marvel, are you anticipating more the Justice League film that's on the way? Saw a trailer for it the other day, looks Ok.

  7. #1687
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    Besides Wonder Woman, the whole new slat of DC films has been very disappointing for me. I'm definitely a Marvel guy in terms of movies, between the two companies.

  8. #1688
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    Marvel definitely has the edge in movies. But DC is much better in comics.

  9. #1689
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    I'm in the minority, but I've vastly enjoyed the DC movies thus far.

    I wasn't so fond of Man of Steel when it first came out, but having re-watched it last year I really, really liked it. I loved Batman v Superman when I saw it in the cinema, and loved the extended version they released on disc all the more. Wonder Woman is a curious one. In traditional movie making terms, I'm not sure it's that great; a lot of the comedy felt forced, and the plot is a bit loopy. Some serious contrivances too ("We got lucky and hitched a ride, made some good time!"). But thematically, I find it really very powerful and love it for that reason.

    Suicide Squad was awful though. Loved Waller; hated everything else about it.
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  10. #1690
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    I saw Man of Steel and Wonder Woman and I liked both of those fine. Didn't see either of the others that you mentioned.

    The only superhero thing I've seen recently that I didn't like at all was Iron Man. Maybe I've got more of a taste for this stuff than I first thought.

  11. #1691
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    Watched the first episode of Daredevil after my chats with Rob in the comics thread. Have to say, very impressed early on.

    Also watched a few episodes of Gotham.

  12. #1692
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    Quote Originally Posted by 'Plan View Post
    I even found Guardians 2 ingratiating because of its need to cram a punch line into literally every single scene of the film. Hemsworth's talk of "encouraged improv" makes me fear Thor Ragnarok might be headed the same way.

    I'll be checking it out, but not in any real hurry.
    Double post, but just seen Thor: Ragnorak and based on this comment, 'Plan, this might not be for you.

    With that said, I loved it. Laughed harder than at most comedies I have seen lately and thought it was also one of the best action movies I have seen in years. There may well have been better artistic successes in the genre but I have genuinely never just simply enjoyed a comic book film that much.

  13. #1693
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    Taika Waititi is a great director so I’m not surprised how well it’s tracking. I had no idea he was directing this until after I saw Hunt for the Wilderpeople a few months ago.

  14. #1694
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    I got the overwhelming impression that everyone had gotten a bit bored of doing Thor films and so decided to just have a laugh regardless. A bit like the last school lesson on a Friday afternoon.

    It annoyed me.
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  15. #1695
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    I don't really have anything invested in them, which has to be factored in. Didn't see the first one. Only saw the second one on Netflix when I'd decided to go and see this one. Thought this was better. Most of the comedy landed (and not just for me and the Mrs judging by the noise in the rest of the cinema), and beyond that, it's just nice to have an action movie that is happy to be an action movie and doesn't feel the need to try and bullshit people into thinking they are watching something with the complexity of Citizen Kane when it's actually just a lot of moodiness.

    But I did find some nice touches beyond that, too. I really enjoyed the whole sybaritic thing they had going on with Goldblum and his ilk and that whole middle section.
    Last edited by Prime Time; 11-01-2017 at 07:40 PM.

  16. #1696
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    Taika Waititi is a great director so I’m not surprised how well it’s tracking. I had no idea he was directing this until after I saw Hunt for the Wilderpeople a few months ago.
    Holy shit, had no idea he was directing this!! My excitement to see the film has just gone up tremendously.

  17. #1697
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    So Justice League came out Friday. This is a film I've waited most of my life to see a version of, and I have to say, as someone who vehemently disagrees with the critical reception of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice (which I maintain to be a masterful entry into its genre), I find myself mostly in agreement with the early critical reception to this one: horribly flawed but ultimately fun.

    The bit that really narks me is that it falls into the same trap as Suicide Squad did, if to a less damaging extent, in that you can definitely tell that there are two visions bolted onto one another. I'm not sure I can find it in me to humour Whedon's Batgirl film after he apparently came in, tore apart Snyder's vision for JL and the DCEU at large and created this...just...tonally bizarre film that sways from being totally consistent with DOJ to being like some awkward Youtube fan film. The characterisation of Batman was all over the place, and mostly not true to the spirit of the character (or even the spirit of the version of the character we saw in DOJ). The villain was under-developed and the plot, you could tell, had been so massively hacked away at to create a 2 hour run time that it felt wafer thin and bereft of jeapordy or stakes.

    Having said that, there's an excellent set piece in the middle of the film, a certain degree of emotional depth, nice characterisation for Flash and Wonder Woman in particular and some fun action scenes. I laughed, smiled and enjoyed myself; but I don't think you could call it a success, really - thanks, in large part, to the mitigating influences on one man's vision. Like or loathe what Snyder was doing, I'd find it hard to agree with the notion that the DCEU will benefit from a massive course correction that disjoints the tones of the films.
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  18. #1698
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    Started watching The Punisher on Netflix this weekend.

    I'm on episode 4 and I'm finding it a slog. Frank Castle is very difficult to empathise with as a central anti-hero, even in spite the horror he's been put through in his life. It's also one hell of a convoluted revenge arc.... It's a shame because I've really loved the other Marvel Netflix series'. Hopefully it'll pick up soon.
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  19. #1699
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    I'll be seeing Justice League. But I'm not going to watch Dawn of Justice. At this point the vast majority of reviews have been so bad, that I just don't think it's going to be worth the time. At best I can see it being OK, but I have a hard time believing that both critical and mass consensus that this is a poor movie can be wrong. If it was an artsy thing, capable of being a cinematic Moby Dick, then maybe I could see it as a grower - but this kind of obviously populist cinema never works like that.

    Since I won't see it, that'll mean that much like my Thor experience, I'll be coming to it cold (though I did see Wonder Woman) and that'll clearly affect how I see the film.



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  20. #1700
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    Back from Justice League. Thought it was just OK. Thought some of the lengthy action sequences were just interminable. Few laughs from Flash, but aside from that most of the humour fell flat. Mostly kept my interest aside from that.



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  21. #1701
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    The extended Dent/Two Face post boat material in the Dark Knight was added bc of Ledger's death. The Joker's story was not complete, but it kind of just ended with him hanging upside down, and it was sufficient.

    But the Two Face kidnapping Gordon's family was added to give the film a true ending and to turn Batman into the Dark Knight. The ending of the movie was supposed to include the Joker and set up for what ever TDKR was supposed to be with Two Face being a main villain AND the Joker having a major part. Dent was supposed to be made into Two Face, but not really go all out criminal in TDK. He was supposed to escape the hospital and then "not be heard from" until the next movie. Ledger's death sped up the Two Face plot and rushed the story to end the movie.

    I do not believe that Bane/Talia were supposed to be in the third installment, but that all changed because Ledger's passing.

  22. #1702
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    Ledger passed away after all filming was completed for The Dark Knight so that wasn't a factor in the production. Obviously it probably did change the direction of the sequel though.

  23. #1703
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    Ledger's death influenced the original ending of the movie.

  24. #1704
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    Nolan shelved Goyer's idea before Ledger passed away. There was no guarantee he was coming back to do a third. So, no, Ledger's death didn't influence the original ending. Nolan had already made his mind up.

  25. #1705
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    Copied across some of the posts from the General Movie Discussion because I think it's worth it: while there is a Nolan discussion generally there to be had, these last few are really about The Dark Knight, and it might be more at home in here. The conversation can go in two different directions.

    But what is next for comic book movies? Is there anything before Black Panther early next year?



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  26. #1706
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    It's seeming more and more likely most former Fox properties will be rebooted besides Deadpool (and possibly newer X-Men actors if Dark Phoenix works out which is iffy).

    Think any will show up in Avengers 4?

  27. #1707
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    No. Infinity War Part 2 is already written and probably mostly shot. They have a year for special effects etc.

    Also May is going to be a HUGE month for movies: Stand Alone Han Solo and Inf War Part 1. I am completely surprised that Disney is competing with itself.

  28. #1708
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    Shooting goes til June I think. You never know.

    I wouldn’t be shocked if Han was delayed.

  29. #1709
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    Considering there hasn't even been a teaser trailer yet for Solo, I wouldn't be shocked at all if it got delayed - especially considering all the drama with the director's chair. It might be they're just waiting till VIII is done to release a trailer, but I anticipate it's got a long cinema run ahead of it.

    Personally, I think I'm more excited about Black Panther than I am Avengers; while the Infinity War trailer has me excited in a way I haven't been for Marvel since the disappointment of Age of Ultron, Black Panther just looks kick-ass!
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  30. #1710
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    Black Panther does look amazing, but Black Lightning is coming in January to the Arrowverse.

  31. #1711
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    I just saw Black Panther and thought it was really really good.

    Amazing setting in a world that I am very interested in, really great action that was fantastical without being too over the top and a really cool soundtrack that blended a lot of traditional African music with rap.

    The highlight though was the characters, sometimes in super hero movies it feels like they don't really flesh out characters and their motives enough. Black Panther though excelled in this area with particular mention for the villan who is possibly the best villan Marvel has ever created for its MCU.

    I'm not ready to christen it the best Marvel movie just yet but it is certainly right up there in comparison to the other stand alone movies in the franchise.

    Very much looking forward to a second viewing.

  32. #1712
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    As I mentioned over in the general movie thread, I had a properly crap cinema visit in general when I saw it last night so I want to give it another go when I'm less stressed out, tired and hungry.

    My first impression was a mixed bag, underlined once again with the feeling that people are being a little too kind to it because of its studio label.

    On the negative side, I thought some of the CGI was properly bad, to the point that I was sat there noticing how fake it felt and looked. There were times that I thought the actors looked as if they were performing in front of one of those old paintings they'd use as scenic backdrops in 1960s films. It also took me a while to get used to some of the, shall we say, less convincing accents being used, especially by Forest Whittaker and Martin Freeman. I enjoyed most of the action, though there were moments in the climactic action scenes that I felt were just too daft to laugh at, made worse by the decision to play it all deadly straight.

    The biggest downside for me, though, was that I felt like the heavy sci-fi element didn't have enough of an identifiable sense of logic behind it. I always remember JK Rowling talking about building the world of Harry Potter and wanting to ensure there was a strong sense of logic behind how all the magic worked, so that it felt that much more believable. Black Panther had a lot of interesting ideas in its depiction of Wakanda, but the gadgetry all felt a bit convenient and odd and I was left scratching my head as to how and why most of it would work. It's not something that usually sticks out to me, that kind of thing, and I certainly wasn't expecting Star Trek-style technobabble exposition or anything, but for whatever reason it did stand out when I was watching it last night. Maybe it's because the magnitude of the sci-fi took me by surprise; I expected it, though not to that extent, so I guess I'll see how that all holds up on a second viewing.

    But there were loads of positives too I felt. Firstly, unlike the majority of other MCU films since Avengers, it didn't sacrifice pathos for comedy. Yes, it got its jokes in, but they were few and far between, genuinely funny and thankfully brief. It didn't cram a punchline into literally every scene like Guardians 2 or Ragnarok tried to, but disarmed some of the heavier going material nicely. So that Black Panther took itself seriously I greatly admired, and enjoyed it all the more because of that. I hope the MCU does that more moving forward.

    Like you, SirSam, I loved a lot of the character development too, and I felt like the film was at its absolute shining best when it focused on those smaller character moments, especially with the two central male characters and the contrast between them. I was delighted by the strength of the female characters in the film, and while I do think it probably tried to take on a few too many characters in all, leaving a couple - notably Killmonger - feeling like there was a boatload more potential to tap into, it pulled off the balancing act really well in the main. I also agree with you, SirSam, that Erik Killmonger is one of the MCU's finest villains, taking his place alongside the likes of Loki and Adrian Toomes. The complexities of his motivation was truly thought-provoking, and I thought Michael B Jordan put in a compelling powerhouse performance as a fully realised character you could genuinely believe in, anchoring the fantastical setting with something all too uncomfortably real.

    That was the real masterstroke; this was a superhero movie with a real social comment to make, and it made that comment exactly how it should have done - without flinching or worrying about your reaction. What's more, that comment felt like a brave one for a major film like this to make, and the fact that it shouldn't feel that way only proved the film's own point. It's a film that stands up perfectly as its own story, doesn't need any of the rest of the MCU to be enjoyed and achieves something mature with its source material. While it has its flaws - and more than most are admitting, in my opinion - its strengths I think outshine the vast majority of the MCU library up to this point. I look forward to seeing it again, though it's the second viewing that's likely going to decide whether this becomes only the third MCU film I have any interest in owning on home video - the others being Guardians 1 and Spider-Man Homecoming.
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  33. #1713
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    Mate, you should be writing movie reviews.

    I can't say I noticed the CGI although it wasn't something I was looking for and I imagine your bad mood contributed to you seeing and noticing it more. Not saying it isn't there but I just didn't notice it.

    Howevee now you pointed it out the technology thing is really weird and does border on non-sensical at times, how is it that this metal can seemingly do anything they want it to? It's applications seem to multiply as the movie goes on, at first we though it was just a really hard metal but turns out it can also power invisibility, oh it also let's us have hover trains, oh and is that a mortal wound? Yeah it heals them too. Starts to become just a little too convenient by the end.

    Also their economy doesn't make a whole lot of sense, how can they be so prosperous without any trade with the outside world? It is a superhero movie though so I'm willing to let that ones slide.

  34. #1714
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    "Bury me in the ocean with my ancestors who jumped from ships because they knew death was better than bondage.”

    That’s a hell of a line. Black Panther was real good.

  35. #1715
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    Black Panther was, in fact, the most poignant Marvel movie ever made. It drew parallels to modern foreign policy and “Black abandonment”. The humor was not the centerpiece of the movie, but wasn’t devoid of any sense of levity like DCEU movies. I also liked the fact they didn’t need any guest heroes to tell a compelling story like nearly all the other Phase 2 and 3 movies. And if this doesn’t stop Hollywood from really showcasing Lupita N’yongo outside of animated and CGI characters, then nothing will. She was SMOKIN!

  36. #1716
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirSam View Post
    Mate, you should be writing movie reviews.

    I can't say I noticed the CGI although it wasn't something I was looking for and I imagine your bad mood contributed to you seeing and noticing it more. Not saying it isn't there but I just didn't notice it.

    Howevee now you pointed it out the technology thing is really weird and does border on non-sensical at times, how is it that this metal can seemingly do anything they want it to? It's applications seem to multiply as the movie goes on, at first we though it was just a really hard metal but turns out it can also power invisibility, oh it also let's us have hover trains, oh and is that a mortal wound? Yeah it heals them too. Starts to become just a little too convenient by the end.

    Also their economy doesn't make a whole lot of sense, how can they be so prosperous without any trade with the outside world? It is a superhero movie though so I'm willing to let that ones slide.
    Vibranium had the same applications in the comics as well. And they’ve had millennia to exploit it while America has only had experience with it in trace amounts for 90 years. I’m sure if they had it a few hundred more years, they’d use it for more than just frisbees.

    And to me, the economy makes sense. When you already have everything you need and everything everyone else has is beneath you, why trade?

  37. #1717
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    Long-ass post coming!

    Ok, so, I need the help of MCU fans!

    I'm not a massive of the MCU franchise in honesty. Most of the films I can happily take or leave, and they don't evoke much of a response from me. Some, I continue to feel bitterly disappointed by - mainly Ultron and Civil War. Three, I completely loathe and there's not enough money in the world to make me sit through again - Doctor Strange, Guardians 2 and Ragnarok. But there are a handful I really do genuinely like - namely The Avengers, Guardians 1, Spidey and quite possibly Black Panther (though the jury is still out on that one in truth, until a second watch).

    Despite these mixed feelings I am quite excited for Infinity War, and so I figured this was a perfect opportunity to do one of my favourite tricks with films - the old Machete Order! You know, the famous thing with Star Wars where you switch up or cut out the movies to make it more enjoyable to revisit? I'm a staunch believer in it, always watch Wars that way and have done it with other franchises too, like Terminator (I always go Salvation, T1, T2). The MCU feels like a prime candidate for me to do this with, so I can come to like it all the more. The question is though, with 18 films to pick from right now, what the hell do I do?!

    Cutting out the three I severely dislike is a given, but Ultron and Civil War both feel vital to the over-arching narrative for various reasons and, hopefully, with a somewhat revised order for me to follow, might be more enjoyable. Here's what I've come up with so far, very roughly, so see what you think and feel free to make suggestions to help me out!

    1. Captain America: The First Avenger - it's chronologically the first of the lot and while it's hardly a film I love I find it inoffensive to revisit, so can happily kick things off with it. I reckon it'd be a great introduction to a world full of superheroes and, crucially, introduces the first Infinity Stone - which is necessary for the order as you'll see. You can keep the post-credits here as a cliffhanger for film 3.

    2. Guardians of the Galaxy - I may need to swap this around with 3, but let me know what you think! I thought Guardians would work well here for a couple of reasons. Chronologically, the prologue to the film obviously comes next after Cap 1, but more importantly it introduces and explains away the Infinity Stones, as well as introducing the big bad of the franchise in Thanos. I think there may be references to some of the others, but my feeling is, with their general idea revealed, you can happily imagine how the rest of them have shown up and what-not. Best of all, because it takes place entirely away from Earth, it doesn't really play havoc with any of the Earth-bound story. Seeing the power of the Purple Stone in Guardians would also, I think, make the stakes in what's coming next feel all the more dramatic! And all the while, it adjusts you to the idea of expecting even more sci-fi and intergalactic action as the franchise progresses. Post-credits doesn't do much harm here either way.

    3. The Avengers - I have a sneaking suspicion that Avengers would serve as a good enough introduction to the remaining central characters of the franchise. Although it assumes familiarity with the group, there are lines that would work effectively as bits of exposition to explain away who they all are, including the Asgardians - who, because we've already seen Guardians, wouldn't feel entirely out of place. It also sets up the conflict between Iron Man and Captain America nicely too. You see the Tesseract again, introduced in Cap 1, and now know exactly what it is and why the baddies are after it - before seeing Thanos in the post-credits, except now you know exactly who he is and what his big plan is in the long-run.

    4. Captain America: Winter Soldier - We keep with Cap as the central hero of the franchise, making it all feel like it has that much more direction instead of zooming all over the place, and now we see threads introduced in the first film come closer to fruition. We're already familiar with Fury and with Shield, and seeing its downfall I think is needed to explain their absence later in the series. Plus, Winter Soldier is a strong effort from Marvel anyway, and it's sort of necessary to cast light on elements of Ultron and Civil War. Mid and post-credits scenes can be kept here as well.

    5. Avengers: Age of Ultron - one of the big disappointments I hope will be improved, furthering the tension between Cap and Iron Man we see in film 3. It doesn't play much havoc in this order either as originally it's inconsequentially separated from Winter Soldier by the unrelated Guardians anyway, so the flow should be quite nice. We're familiar with a lot of the characters because of Avengers 1, and it introduces some others in cameos ready for Civil War - there might not be much in explaining who they are (like War Machine), but I guess maybe it's worth just rolling with it? The focus on Infinity Stones returns after just one short movie away as well, with Vision's gem and Loki's scepter. It also provides the sense of paranoid fallout for Tony Stark in the absence of Iron Man 3. Post-credits again works fine, with Thanos returning to 'do it himself.'

    6. Captain America: Civil War - still keeping a tight focus on Cap as the central hero, Civil War escalates the events of Age of Ultron even further and coming almost back to back to back with Avengers 1 means the Accords feel less incongruous in their timing. We know pretty much all the characters involved except Ant-Man and Panther; the latter is introduced in the film and the former is "a guy [Falcon] knows." Do we really need to know how? It also sets Spidey and Panther's films brilliantly thanks to flashbacks, finishes off the growing tensions between Cap and Iron Man and continues the latter's fallout from Avengers 1. Keeping the post-credits does little to further plot, but leads nicely into film 7 anyway.

    7. Spider-Man: Homecoming - I really, really liked Homecoming and I think it might be the strongest film of the entire franchise in honesty, so it's a definite keeper. That it crosses over with Civil War means I sort of have to keep Civil War in as film 6 and hope it improves in this leaner version of the MCU. Otherwise it's a great stand-alone with a cameo from Cap to keep him fresh in our minds despite his fall from grace, while Iron Man's role continues developing his post-Manhattan paranoia. Post-credits is neither here nor there, really, so capable of being kept.

    8. Black Panther - while I still want to see it a second time, I did like Black Panther and would happily include it here. Like Spidey, it's more of a standalone but it ratchets up the sci-fi element in time for Infinity War, which looks to be set at least in large part in Wakanda. It rounds off a thread from Civil War with Panther himself and, because it is anyway, will surely be a smooth lead into Infinity War itself.

    9. Avengers: Infinity War - what else?

    So there you have it. What do you think? Would this work? Should I swap films out for alternatives? Should I maybe change the running order a little? Give us a hand! I don't know the films all that well, so may have missed something or not, but I reckon the above would work nicely and keep it shorter and sweeter for me to be more on board with the MCU as I was at the beginning. The weakest films are cut, the ones I dislike are skipped and the ones I was disappointed in get a second chance! Plus you get to keep all the post-credits stuff too!
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  38. #1718
    Senior Member JacobWrestledGod's Avatar
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    Why did u think spider was good? I didn’t watch it and was looking for a reason to because I watched so many of the god damn Spider-Man movies that another reboot just plainly doesn’t appeal. Sell it to me, I just wanna know if it is worth my time.
    And Jacob wrestled with God.






  39. #1719
    Samuel Plan
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    Spidey stood on its own two feet in the main part. Sure, there's some Iron Man in there and a few hints at what went down in Civil War, but you could easily watch it in isolation and it make sense. It was considerably better acted than any of the massively over-rated, terribly hammy Sam Raimi movies, and better written for that matter too. Michael Keaton as Toomes was one of the franchise's best villains because of how his character and motivations were put together. Most of all, it was charming, good, colourful, pulpy fun that felt tonally like everything a Spider-Man film should. The mopey downtrodden wet-blanket nonsense of the Maguire years was nowhere to be seen and the ingratiating smugness of the Garfield stuff was gone. Tom Holland was a revelation as a proper Peter Parker, and the focus on making sure it felt like a film about a teenager going through teenage things was so refreshing - at times, there was a bit of a Breakfast Club feel to it. Plus, to its credit, it avoids re-telling the well-trodden origin story for simply throwing us right into the midst of Peter's life as Spider-Man.

    More than anything though, it struck an absolutely brilliant balance between humour and pathos in a way so few MCU films are interested in doing anymore. There's plenty of jokes in there, and most of them land, but there's also some genuine drama. One particular twist towards the end shifts the tone into something really quite dark, and that's where Homecoming reached its next level.

    I thought it was absolutely tremendous.
    101 WWE Matches To See Before You Die: The Book is now available to buy on Amazon UK, Amazon US and Amazon Europe! Just search for "101 WWE Matches" and it'll pop up!

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  40. #1720
    Senior Member JacobWrestledGod's Avatar
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    Ok sold, will go to rent it tomorrow
    And Jacob wrestled with God.






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