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Thread: A Song Of Ice and Fire (Thread for the Books ... careful Spoilers)

  1. #41
    Queen of Extreme Irishsara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachBrief View Post
    I'm at the point in her story that I actually hope she doesn't get the Iron Throne. I don't hope for her death or anything, but I just don't want her on the Throne. I joke around with my friend about how Stannis is the one, true King, but He'd be a terrible King also. At this point, Tommen & Margery provide the most stable, peaceful future for Westeros.
    Daenerys is queen. There has never been a queen who has ruled in her own name in the history of Westeros. (Check out the Princess and the Queen). Great Council of 101AC proved that the rights of the son come before the rights of a daughter no matter what the birth order. Rhaenyra was a pretender for that exact reason in the Dance of Dragons.

    I personally think a certain bastard will be King in his own name with Daenerys as his queen.

  2. #42
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    God, I seriously hope the L+R=J theory isn't true.

    I abhor reading Jon's chapters about as much as I do Bran's. I'd rather the Others march to King's Landing than have the series end on: "And Jon Snow, now Jon Targaryen sat on his Iron Throne for the first time, with his Queen and Khaleesi, Danerys Stormborn by his side and his Hand, Tyrion Lannister on his right. And the Throne felt uncomfortable, as it was meant to, but King Jon did not cut himself on a blade, which meant that he and he alone was meant to rule the Seven Kingdoms etc etc."

    But I don't think he will. He already turned down being legitimized and given Winterfell by Stannis, because he has honor and stuck to his vows. I don't see why he was turn his back on the Watch to become King. Especially after his conversation with Aemon in AGOT about how Aemon turned down the throne for his vows.
    Last edited by CoachBrief; 04-29-2014 at 01:07 PM.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachBrief View Post
    God, I seriously hope the L+R=J theory isn't true.
    For me? It has to be true. Ned fathering a bastard child (and his interactions with Robert and such) makes no sense for his character. Jon could be a bastard of House Stark and House Dayne but id much rather him being the son of Rheagar taking Lyanna in the old way. She was a She-wolf of Winterfell and she was "stolen" like the old ways of The North. Rheagar Kidnapped her Sacrificing his whole kingdom for the love that couldnt wait. Ned remaining faithful to a deathbed promise of his dying sister. The last true knights dying in defense of a son of The Dragon. So Ned raising his sister's true born son in secret as one of his own becomes a heroic act. It makes Jon the true mirror image of Theon's twisted one. Jon becomes what Ned hoped Theon would. A true son of The North with the blood of Dragons. I think there is something in the crypts of Winterfell to prove Jon Snow is both legitimate and son of Lyanna and Rhegar. Why else would there be a statute to her in the Crypts? There are only the statute of the Lords of Winterfell in those crypts. If Lyanna was a queen (and remember in the Targ tradition you can take multiple wives) then it would make more sense.

    So I hope Jon Snow ends up as the true warrior king. Rider of the Dragon named for his father. To Jon, Tyrion rallies the Westerlands, Sansa the Vale, Rickon the North, The Blackfish brings the Riverlands, Shireen and whichever Tyrell she ends up wed to bring The Reach, and Gendry and Arya bring The Stormlands. True heir of the Iron Throne by blood and fire.

    I personally hope Rickon, the Wild Wolf becomes Heir of Winterfell with two direwolves flanking his seat in a rebuilt Winterfell.

    Who needs The Watch if the Others are defeated? I also think Jon's death frees him from his vows. I personally hope that either Ser Jorah Mormont or Eddison Tollet becomes the 1,000 Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. (I guess Jaime Lannister could but that would make me sad because I think he rides Viserion after Aegon the pretender is killed.)

  4. #44
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    Thing is, once you read through the books with R+L=J in mind, so much of the story makes so much more sense. So many little thoughts that might have gotten looked over before. So many dreams. Maybe it's just me wanting it to be true, but that's how I feel. The only thing that would turn me off would be that it means Ned never cheated on Cat, which would make him as one-dimensional as Joffrey. On the other hand though, it really balances out the spectrum when you consider Joff had Ned killed.
    I think it's awesome that the word lisp has an "s" in it.

  5. #45
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    I don't think Jaime rides anything when Danerys comes riding into town. Jaime is going to be killed in the worst way, the last great death in the series. Danerys will not stand for the man that killed her father.

    I really don't have a prediction for the ending yet. Not until I know what Littlefinger has planned. I'm putting all my eggs in his basket for something epic and memorable. And until we know exactly what he has planned, I don't know how things are going to turn out.

    EDIT: To bring the show conversation over here Smart, I figure Lady Stoneheart will be the last scene of the season. The three big scenes this season are Tyrion killing Tywin, Littlefinger shoving Lysa out of the Moon Door, and Lady Stoneheart. I don't know which order they should go in, but Cat's return should end the season, without a doubt. But those are three huge scenes back-to-back-to-back. How would you handle it?
    Last edited by CoachBrief; 04-29-2014 at 01:57 PM.

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    If I was a betting man I'd bet that Littlefinger does nothing. There was a bit of foreshadowing regarding him on this weeks episode. "Sansa a Killer? No. Not yet."

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smart_Mark View Post
    Thing is, once you read through the books with R+L=J in mind, so much of the story makes so much more sense. So many little thoughts that might have gotten looked over before. So many dreams. Maybe it's just me wanting it to be true, but that's how I feel. The only thing that would turn me off would be that it means Ned never cheated on Cat, which would make him as one-dimensional as Joffrey. On the other hand though, it really balances out the spectrum when you consider Joff had Ned killed.
    See, I kind of disagree with this. I think if anything it makes Ned significantly more complicated and highlights his fatal flaw.

    Brandon's flaw was his rashness. Lyanna's was her independence, Ned's was his honor. It got them all killed. Imagine now, knowing what you do about Jon's parentage, Lyanna's love for Rheagar and now look at Ned's reaction. He breaks his oaths of fealty to the Iron Throne, he loses his father and his eldest brother, he plunges the world into death and destruction, all because his sister did not honor a betrothal? The blood of the First Men still flows in the veins of the Starks and the actions of Lyanna are understood culturally. Yet again Ned did not know. Ned's honor blinds him. It give him dimension.

    You are an honest and honorable man, Lord Eddard. Ofttimes I forget that. I have met so few of them in my life...When I see what honesty and honor have won you, I understand why.
    – Varys


    Cersei: You should have taken the realm for yourself. It was there for the taking. Jaime told me how you found him on the Iron Throne the day King’s Landing fell, and made him yield it up. That was your moment. All you needed to do was climb those steps, and sit. Such a sad mistake.

    Eddard: I have made more mistakes than you can possibly imagine, but that was not one of them.



    Quote Originally Posted by CoachBrief View Post
    I don't think Jaime rides anything when Danerys comes riding into town. Jaime is going to be killed in the worst way, the last great death in the series. Danerys will not stand for the man that killed her father.

    I really don't have a prediction for the ending yet. Not until I know what Littlefinger has planned. I'm putting all my eggs in his basket for something epic and memorable. And until we know exactly what he has planned, I don't know how things are going to turn out.
    Dragons choose their riders not the other way around. Viserion’s colors are cream and gold, the colors of the current Lord Commander King’s Guard. Drogon is now Daenerys’ dragon for her life, and his red and black match her colours perfectly. A human can only ride one dragon their entire life. Daenerys does not get to pick the riders. The dragons do.

    I am sure you dont know that Daenerys and Jaime are step-siblings. Your skimming doesnt seem like the best technique to pick up on the multiple threads laid through multiple narratives through multiple books. You dont really think that it will be a repeat of The Conquest do you? That it will be that easy? The other side is going to get at least one dragon.

    Quote Originally Posted by KiLL CoLD View Post
    If I was a betting man I'd bet that Littlefinger does nothing.
    Yeah Poor Petyr is creating a monster. Lady of the Vale Sansa Arryn married to Harry the Heir.

  8. #48
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    How are Jaime & Danerys step-siblings? I must have missed something big then. I only said I skim Bran's chapters. I've went through a reread all the books (again, except for ADWD).

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    The Mad King Aerys was known for mocking Tywinn about wanting to bed his wife. Went as far as to suggest it was a "Travesty" that the King no longer held first rights at Tywinns Wedding.

    I don't think its Jaime because him and Cersei are twins. It would have to be both of them and Cersei being one makes very little sense IMO. If its one of them it is Tyrion. He has the mismatched eyes. He is a Kinslayer killing his Mother and his Father now. He seems to have more of the Targ traits then Jaime does.

  10. #50
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    Another major theory of Ice/Fire is that the Lannister twins are actually Targaryens. I don't believe it, but 'Sara does thanks in large part to the dream she's probably about to post.

    Does anyone else see the show making Sansa a bit more compliant in the actual murder of her aunt? Like, the same amount of "twist" that they applied to the Jaime/Cersei scene a few weeks ago?
    Last edited by Smart_Mark; 04-29-2014 at 03:51 PM.
    I think it's awesome that the word lisp has an "s" in it.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachBrief View Post
    How are Jaime & Danerys step-siblings? I must have missed something big then. I only said I skim Bran's chapters. I've went through a reread all the books (again, except for ADWD).
    Aerys liked Tywin’s wife Joanna and took Liberties with her. .

    “The white knight chose his words with care. “Prince Aerys … as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister. When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord’s right to the first night had been abolished. A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the … the liberties your father took during the bedding.” His face reddened. “I have said too much, Your Grace. I—” – A Dance With Dragons

    Remember Targs used to practice the Law of First Night, Before King Jaehaerys and Queen Alysane, a lord could bed any maiden within his domain upon her wedding night. These children were considered Born of dragonseed. (a big part of The Princess and the Queen, I don’t want to spoil it but read it, its fun).
    “Though it had always been their custom to wed brother to sister and cousin to cousin, young blood runs hot, and it was not unknown for the men of the House to seek their pleasures amongst the daughters (and even the wives) of their subjects, the smallfolk who lived in the villages bellows the Dragonmount, tillers of the land and fishers of the sea.” - Princess and the Queen

    The twins thing is very Targaryen.

    Cersei has the madness and loves wildfire.

    Jaime ignored that. “If these flames spread beyond the tower, you may end up burning down the castle whether you mean to or not. Wildfire is treacherous.”

    “Lord Hallyne has assured me that his pyromancers can control the fire.” The Guild of Alchemists had been brewing fresh wildfire for a fortnight. “Let all of King’s Landing see the flames. It will be a lesson to our enemies.”

    “Now you sound like Aerys.” – A Feast For Crows

    “No need.” Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. “The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while.” - A Feast For Crows
    Look at Jaime’s reaction to watching Cersei burn the Tower of the Hand – “ Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She’d stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said.

    The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him.”

    Also in the same chapter

    “Let him be king over charred bones and cooked meat, Jaime remembered, studying his sister’s smile. Let him be the king of ashes”. – A Feast For Crows

    Jaime quotes Aerys while thinking of his sister.

    She had a weird attraction to both Rhegar and her brother

    “The memory of the rejection still rankled, even after all these years. Many a night she had watched Prince Rhaegar in the hall, playing his silver-stringed harp with those long, elegant fingers of his. Had any man ever been so beautiful? He was more than a man, though. His blood was the blood of old Valyria, the blood of dragons and gods. When she was just a little girl, her father had promised her that she would marry Rhaegar. She could not have been more than six or seven. “Never speak of it, child,” he had told her, smiling his secret smile that only Cersei ever saw. “Not until His Grace agrees to the betrothal. It must remain our secret for now.” And so it had, though once she had drawn a picture of herself flying behind Rhaegar on a dragon, her arms wrapped tight about his chest. When Jaime had discovered it she told him it was Queen Alysanne and King Jaehaerys.

    [H]er father had failed her, just as Jaime was failing her now. Father found no better man. Instead he gave me Robert, and Maggy’s curse bloomed like some poisonous flower. If she had only married Rhaegar as the gods intended, he would never have looked twice at the wolf girl. Rhaegar would be our king today and I would be his queen, the mother of his sons.

    She had never forgiven Robert for killing him”. - A Feast for Crows,

    Jaime and Cersei, Joff and Tommen, are two sides of the Targaryen coin.

    King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness were two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land. - A Dance with Dragons

    Jaime and Cersei have Lannister Coloring but Joanna Lannister was a Lannister before she married Tywin.


    For me, this is the clincher :

    Remember Jaime’s dream while he is in Riverrun? The one where he sees the Silent Sister who reminds him of his mother?


    "That night he dreamt that he was back in the Great Sept of Baelor, still standing vigil over his father’s corpse. The sept was still and dark, until a woman emerged from the shadows and walked slowly to the bier. “Sister?” he said. But it was not Cersei. She was all in grey, a silent sister. A hood and veil concealed her features, but he could see the candles burning in the green pools of her eyes. “Sister,” he said, “what would you have of me?” His last word echoed up and down the sept, mememememememememememe.

    “I am not your sister, Jaime.” She raised a pale soft hand and pushed her hood back. “Have you forgotten me?” Can I forget someone I never knew? The words caught in his throat. He did know her, but it had been so long . . . “Will you forget your own lord father too? I wonder if you ever knew him, truly.” Her eyes were green, her hair spun gold. He could not tell how old she was. Fifteen, he thought, or fifty. She climbed the steps to stand above the bier. “He could never abide being laughed at. That was the thing he hated most.” “Who are you?” He had to hear her say it.

    “The question is, who are you?” “This is a dream.” “Is it?” She smiled sadly. “Count your hands, child.” One. One hand, clasped tight around the sword hilt. Only one. “In my dreams I always have two hands.” He raised his right arm and stared uncomprehending at the ugliness of his stump. “we all dream of things we cannot have. Tywin dreamed that his son would be a great knight, that his daughter would be a queen. He dreamed they would be so strong and brave and beautiful that no one would ever laugh at them.” “I am a knight,” he told her, “and Cersei is a queen.” A tear rolled down her cheek. The woman raised her hood again and turned her back on him. Jaime called after her, but already she was moving away, her skirt whispering lullabies as it brushed across the floor. Don’t leave me, he wanted to call, but of course she’d left them long ago. " - A Feast for Crows

    What does that dream mean to you?

    Sounds like Tywin is dreaming of a son and a daughter he would never have ...

    Jaime had other dragon dreams (If you have read the Dunk and Egg books Jaime says the exact same thing to Brienne at Harrenhall that Egg says to Dunk) There are some more crazy reaches (Like Jamie sitting uncut on the Iron Throne or the amount of times people talk about Cersei having eyes like fire )and I could go on, but that’s the basic framework. Does anything say it either way? Nope. But it’s there. There is enough for a decent theory I think, which along with coloring, expectation, and Jaime’s arc it sort of makes sense. Viserion is currently in the distant hills surrounding Meereen. What is a really big hill? Ill give you a hint, it ends with Rock.


    Quote Originally Posted by KiLL CoLD View Post
    The Mad King Aerys was known for mocking Tywinn about wanting to bed his wife. Went as far as to suggest it was a "Travesty" that the King no longer held first rights at Tywinns Wedding.

    I don't think its Jaime because him and Cersei are twins. It would have to be both of them and Cersei being one makes very little sense IMO. If its one of them it is Tyrion. He has the mismatched eyes. He is a Kinslayer killing his Mother and his Father now. He seems to have more of the Targ traits then Jaime does.
    Cersei is the lynchpin of the whole argument actually. She has the madness, the obsession with fire and all the bad Targ traits. Twins happen in the Targaryen Dynasty. Prince Rhaegel Targaryen was the third son of King Daeron II and he had twins. Daemon Blackfyre had the twinsAegon and Aemon. Aegon II had the twins Jaehaerys and Jaehaera and Daemon Targaryen and Laena Velaryon have the twins Baela and Rhaena in the story of The Princess and The Queen about The Dance of Dragons.


    Quote Originally Posted by Smart_Mark View Post
    Another major theory of Ice/Fire is that the Lannister twins are actually Targaryens. I don't believe it, but 'Sara does thanks in large part to the dream she's probably about to post.
    Ive actually went a bit further then that and fleshed it out more as you can see. Princess and the Queen made me more sure than ever. I believe that Jaime and Cersei have dragon blood. If it is from Aerys then it fits my theory. If it comes from "surprising Lannister ancestor" which is coming soon from the World of Ice and Fire (http://www.amazon.com/The-World-Ice-.../dp/0553805444) I still think that there is the Blood of Old Valyria in those veins. Which would mean Jaime could ride a Dragon. Which is my overall point.
    Last edited by Irishsara; 04-29-2014 at 04:44 PM.

  12. #52
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    Sorry Sara, but you're not going to convince me of "The wand chooses the wizard" argument when it comes to riding dragons in the ASoIaF universe.

    The only characters I'm certain will still be living come the end of the series will be Danerys, Tyrion, & Sansa. Anybody else is fair game to me.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachBrief View Post
    Sorry Sara, but you're not going to convince me of "The wand chooses the wizard" argument when it comes to riding dragons in the ASoIaF universe.
    The Dragon chooses the rider was clearly established in The Princess and The Queen. Vermithor, Silverwing, Seasmoke and Sheepstealer all took on baseborn riders after burning maming and killing plenty of noble, more preferable riders decided to be unworthy.

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    Twins aren't exclusive to the Targs tho and "The Madness" is as much rumor as it is fact. 2 or 3 people being crazy in a line over 30 doesn't make them prone "To Madness" as people pretend. There is no black and white as GRRM has said over and over. So I doubt he will be having roles that are crazy for crazy sake. Cersei does not have the madness. She is paranoid. Just like anyone would be who has been in her shoes. Cersei is cold and calculating. Thats not madness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KiLL CoLD View Post
    Twins aren't exclusive to the Targs tho and "The Madness" is as much rumor as it is fact. 2 or 3 people being crazy in a line over 30 doesn't make them prone "To Madness" as people pretend. There is no black and white as GRRM has said over and over. So I doubt he will be having roles that are crazy for crazy sake. Cersei does not have the madness. She is paranoid. Just like anyone would be who has been in her shoes. Cersei is cold and calculating. Thats not madness.
    Oh there are way more crazy targaryens according to GRRM. I think we will learn more when we get The World of Ice and Fire. I think we have 7 examples from the Wiki if we include just Targaryens and dont include the Lannister kids or the Blackfyres. The Targaryen propensity for madness is known even in Essos.

    Hell, Look at the rest of that Ser Barristan Selmy quote from above - "I am no maester to quote history at you, Your Grace. Swords have been my life, not books. But every child knows that the Targaryens have always danced too close to madness. Your father was not the first. King Jaehaerys once told me that madness and greatness are two sides of the same coin. Every time a new Targaryen is born, he said, the gods toss the coin in the air and the world holds its breath to see how it will land." - A Storm of Swords

    Name one example of twins outside of the Targs in any of the Westerosi works ... I found what 4 pairs using Westeros.org and they are all from one bloodline?

    The only one i can possibly think of are the Fowler twins, and im pretty sure they are dragon blooded. I completely forgot about the Cargyll twins on the King's Guard. So yeah, the twins thing you might have a point. ( Lady Olenna has those two guys too but I dunno if they are ever mentioned as twins)
    Last edited by Irishsara; 04-29-2014 at 05:30 PM.

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    Littlefinger hints that Robert fathered twins to a serving woman at Casterly Rock who were killed by Queen Cersei's agents. Yea I know he has Targ Blood in him but he isnt really a Targ by any means.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KiLL CoLD View Post
    Littlefinger hints that Robert fathered twins to a serving woman at Casterly Rock who were killed by Queen Cersei's agents. Yea I know he has Targ Blood in him but he isnt really a Targ by any means.
    Robert's grandmother was Targaryen. That is super close. He has Targaryen blood on both his father's side (his ancient progentor) and on his mother's side.

    Rhaelle Targaryen was the daughter of Aegon V Targaryen and the mother of Lord Steffon Baratheon and grandmother of Robert, Stannis and Renly.

    I found two more though which makes your point better than Robert.

    It was through her that Robert's claim comes from Aegon V
    Last edited by Irishsara; 04-29-2014 at 05:38 PM.

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    Yeah I cant look right now. I just know off the top of my head that there ARE other twins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KiLL CoLD View Post
    Yeah I cant look right now. I just know off the top of my head that there ARE other twins.
    Im furiously wiki'ing on my phone before a meeting.

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    The Redwyne twins, unless I'm mistaken.

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    Good call. Ser Horas and Ser Hobber. They used to pick on Sam or some shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KiLL CoLD View Post
    Yeah I cant look right now. I just know off the top of my head that there ARE other twins.
    So we need the creakier evidence then.

    I still dont think it disproves the larger argument. The paranoia and malevolent madness of both Cersei and Joffrey is very Targ madness. Every child in Westeros knows Targs are mad, so its not something to be argued really.

    The first time we ever see Jaime Lannister he is wearing Targ colors "Ser Jaime Lannister was twin to Queen Cersei; tall and golden, with flashing green eyes and a smile that cut like a knife. He wore crimson silk, high black boots, a black satin cloak." - A Game Of Thrones (there was a Lion breastplate)

    There all also a collection of little comments. Tywin says "You are not my son. You say you are the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, and only that. Very well, ser. Go do your duty" , Genna Lannister Frey saying " Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you" and that weird Aerys quote

    "When Ser Gerold Hightower raised him up and put the white cloak about his shoulders, a roar went up that Jaime still remembered, all these years later. But that very night Aerys had turned sour, declaring that he had no need of seven Kingsguard here at Harrenhal. Jaime was commanded to return to King's Landing to guard the queen and little Prince Viserys, who'd remained behind. Even when the White Bull offered to take that duty himself, so Jaime might compete in Lord Whent's tourney, Aerys had refused. "He'll win no glory here," the king had said. "He's mine now, not Tywin's. He'll serve as I see fit. I am the king. I rule, and he'll obey." " - A Storm of Swords.

    Personally, I dont think the last one works but Its underlined as evidence by some, only if you think that Aerys knows.

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    I don't think Jaime will ever come in contact with Dany. Ever. If so it will happen toward the end and I don't see her acting to kind to him. Even if they were to find out they were related he still is a Kingslayer. I think Jaimes story begins and ends with the Starks based on one of Brans visions

    "There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood"

    Again the madness thing in the Targs isnt as bad as its made at to be considering a lot of it is rumor. It is rumored that some are mad based on the fact they are different and their incest. Cersei isn't mad. She is cunning and calculating. She is paranoid due to all the dumb shit she has done. None of it being "Madness". Her liking the Wild fire doesn't mean she has an affinity for fire. It just means she thought it was great and would serve the purpose of what they wanted. Its the only time her and fire are ever mentioned. If she had it come up over and over I'd agree.

    The last example points at Aerys taking Jaime away from Tywinn. It also is partly due for Tywinn claiming Jaime is not his son. He never wanted Jaime to be in the Kingsguard. the day he joined he was no longer Tywinns son because he cant take land or lay claim to anything of his families now. He isn't literally not his son but by all the rules in the Kingdom he is no longer his son only Kingsguard.

    Also Jaime and Cersei arent Kinslayers as far as we know. Tyrion on the other hand is two times over and he has mismatched color eyes. He has more markers for being a secret Targ then Jaime does. Everything that points at Jaime being is a secret Targ is circumstantial false clues. They are only based on rumor. Tyrion has 2 based on FACT.

    In fact Tyrion probably is the leading candidate as far as the markers go. Everyone else? Fakes.

  24. #64
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    I'm going to go out on a limb here, and Sara, correct if I'm wrong. Because I don't know how you have exact sentences pulled up and where to find them for any situation relating to the VAST universe that Martin has created, but I don't.

    But I'm going to use hair color as my argument. As big as the hair color ordeal with Joffery was, that has to play an important clue in all of this. Isn't it specifically stated somewhere that ALL Targareyns have silver hair and purple eyes? Jaime, Tyrion, Cersei, Jon... Not one of them has silver hair and purple eyes. All of the Lannister children have the Lannister golden hair (which based on Ned's research into Joffery, is not the dominant hair color) and green eyes. Except for Tyrion, who is a dwarf with many deformities. But he still has golden hair and one green eye. The other eye is black, not even close to purple.

    And Jon's eyes are so dark, they are almost black. His hair is dark, but even then, those feature could come from Ned.
    Last edited by CoachBrief; 04-29-2014 at 10:46 PM.

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    Hell, I would say Tyrion's obsession over dragons would count for more than Cersei's apparent affinity for wildfire.
    I think it's awesome that the word lisp has an "s" in it.

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    ^ Bingo.

    The Targ traits carried over through most generations through inbreeding. When other races are mixed in their traits don't always carry over so well.

    Roberts bloodline is part of the Targs and he has none of those traits.

    http://i.imgur.com/8v0Ic.png < Love shit like this.


    Also when we first meet Tyrion it is said "His hair is so blond, it's almost white". Tyrion has a fascination with dragons. Tyrion saved Kings Landing by using fire [even if his sister has it made].
    Last edited by KiLL CoLD; 04-29-2014 at 11:03 PM.

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    I'm not convinced of coincidences like having a fascination with dragons. That's stretching like saying Cersei is Targaryen because she likes wildfire. And again, a coincidence that he uses wildfire at the Battle of the Blackwater. He uses the best strategy to defend the city, and it happens to be wildfire.

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    Oh, I didn't say I was convinced of anything except R+L=J. Just merely stating that a bigger deal has been made about Tyrion and the dragons than about Cersei and the wildfire. Now, if somewhere in FfC she mentioned how she wishes she could have witnessed the beauty and the spectacle of Stannis' men burning on the Blackwater, then that would catch my attention.
    I think it's awesome that the word lisp has an "s" in it.

  29. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiLL CoLD View Post
    I don't think Jaime will ever come in contact with Dany. Ever. If so it will happen toward the end and I don't see her acting to kind to him. Even if they were to find out they were related he still is a Kingslayer. I think Jaimes story begins and ends with the Starks based on one of Brans visions

    "There were shadows all around them. One shadow was dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound. Another was armored like the sun, golden and beautiful. Over them both loomed a giant in armor made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood"

    Again the madness thing in the Targs isnt as bad as its made at to be considering a lot of it is rumor. It is rumored that some are mad based on the fact they are different and their incest. Cersei isn't mad. She is cunning and calculating. She is paranoid due to all the dumb shit she has done. None of it being "Madness". Her liking the Wild fire doesn't mean she has an affinity for fire. It just means she thought it was great and would serve the purpose of what they wanted. Its the only time her and fire are ever mentioned. If she had it come up over and over I'd agree.

    The last example points at Aerys taking Jaime away from Tywinn. It also is partly due for Tywinn claiming Jaime is not his son. He never wanted Jaime to be in the Kingsguard. the day he joined he was no longer Tywinns son because he cant take land or lay claim to anything of his families now. He isn't literally not his son but by all the rules in the Kingdom he is no longer his son only Kingsguard.

    Also Jaime and Cersei arent Kinslayers as far as we know. Tyrion on the other hand is two times over and he has mismatched color eyes. He has more markers for being a secret Targ then Jaime does. Everything that points at Jaime being is a secret Targ is circumstantial false clues. They are only based on rumor. Tyrion has 2 based on FACT.

    In fact Tyrion probably is the leading candidate as far as the markers go. Everyone else? Fakes.
    I would say that the selfishness, ineptitude and paranoia are all hallmarks of the Targ madness. Look, ACTUAL Targaryans have confirmed The Targ madness. We have seen the madness in at least 3 Targs in the books up close. Its madness. It also has a historical parallel from the beginning of the War of the Roses.

    Cersei’s eyes are constantly associated with wildfire throughout the books. Ive found two of them in my notes.

    Sansa from a clash of Kings (A full book before she burns the tower) - “The queen was drinking heavily, but the wine only seemed to make her more beautiful; her cheeks were flushed, and her eyes had a bright, feverish heat to them as she looked down over the hall. Eyes of wildfire, Sansa thought.”

    Jaime from A Feast of Crows -“His sister liked to think of herself as Lord Tywin with teats, but she was wrong. Their father had been as relentless and implacable as a glacier, where Cersei was all wildfire, especially when thwarted.”

    Those aren’t about the Tower of the Hand.

    Jaime would be a kinslayer if he killed his father by stabbing him in the back.

    Jaime compares Cersei to wildfire and Aerys a few times, not just involving the tower. Tyrion compares Joff to Aerys as well.

    I believe they are forshadowing Tyrion’s dragon flight but remember Dragons that have been bonded can take a passenger if their rider is riding as well. It could easily be on the back of Jaime’s dragon as it is on Dany’s.



    Quote Originally Posted by CoachBrief View Post
    I'm going to go out on a limb here, and Sara, correct if I'm wrong. Because I don't know how you have exact sentences pulled up and where to find them for any situation relating to the VAST universe that Martin has created, but I don't.

    But I'm going to use hair color as my argument. As big as the hair color ordeal with Joffery was, that has to play an important clue in all of this. Isn't it specifically stated somewhere that ALL Targareyns have silver hair and purple eyes? Jaime, Tyrion, Cersei, Jon... Not one of them has silver hair and purple eyes. All of the Lannister children have the Lannister golden hair (which based on Ned's research into Joffery, is not the dominant hair color) and green eyes. Except for Tyrion, who is a dwarf with many deformities. But he still has golden hair and one green eye. The other eye is black, not even close to purple.

    And Jon's eyes are so dark, they are almost black. His hair is dark, but even then, those feature could come from Ned.
    Joanna Lannister was born in to a cadet branch of House Lannister. She had the Blonde Hair and green eyes. She was a Lannister the whole time. She was as much of a Lannister as Tywin.

    The reason for the Targareyn inbreeding is that the blood is not strong. (Look at Robert for example looking like a traditional Baratheon even though his grandmother was a silver haired violet eyed Targ or check out Aurane Waters who's bloodline often shows valyrian features of silver hair and purple eyes have silver-gold hair and grey-green eyes.

    If by Ned, you mean Lyanna, Lyanna is described very Starkly with the dark hair, grey eyes and long face . Ned describes her as "wolf-blooded".

    The argument isn't Cersei is a Targareyn because she likes Wildfire, but because Aerys took liberties, Jaime had a dream where its laid out, Both Cersei and her son Joff have The Madness (without any other Targ blood) AND a bunch of other little things. Its one part of a larger argument.
    Last edited by Irishsara; 04-30-2014 at 12:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachBrief View Post
    I'm not convinced of coincidences like having a fascination with dragons. That's stretching like saying Cersei is Targaryen because she likes wildfire. And again, a coincidence that he uses wildfire at the Battle of the Blackwater. He uses the best strategy to defend the city, and it happens to be wildfire.
    I don't believe any of them are truly Targ. I just believe if its one of them then it will be Tyrion.

    In fact I think Ser Gerold Dayne and Aurane Waters are more likely to be one of the Three Heads.

  31. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiLL CoLD View Post
    I don't believe any of them are truly Targ. I just believe if its one of them then it will be Tyrion.

    In fact I think Ser Gerold Dayne and Aurane Waters are more likely to be one of the Three Heads.
    There is an example from The Princess and the Queen of a Non- Valyrian riding and training a dragon.

  32. #72
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    It's been about a year since I last read the books, looks like I need to have another go. You and Sara are throwing out names I am familiar with, but can't exactly remember what they do.

  33. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by CoachBrief View Post
    It's been about a year since I last read the books, looks like I need to have another go. You and Sara are throwing out names I am familiar with, but can't exactly remember what they do.
    The audiobooks are REALLY good. I cannot recommend them enough. Ive read the books twice (once for Dance) and ive listened to them once (and i listened to the Dunk and Egg and read the Princess and the Queen) Its fun because you can see all the foreshadowing much clearer because you know what is going to happen with Bolton and the late Lord Frey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irishsara View Post
    There is an example from The Princess and the Queen of a Non- Valyrian riding and training a dragon.
    I know. I still dont think it will be any of them and if it is its Tyrion.

    Also...GRRM reveals that D&D guessed Jon Snow's parentage correctly. : http://www.rollingstone.com/movies/n...rview-20140428

    Ashara Dayne was never mentioned in the show, this might suggest that she's not the mother of Jon.

    Oh and there was a set of twins mentioned in The Princess and The Queen, or , The Blacks and The Greens. Ser Erryk Cargyll and Ser Arryk Carhyall. Members of the Kingsguard. Thats another set.
    Last edited by KiLL CoLD; 04-30-2014 at 02:16 AM.

  35. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiLL CoLD View Post
    Oh and there was a set of twins mentioned in The Princess and The Queen, or , The Blacks and The Greens. Ser Erryk Cargyll and Ser Arryk Carhyall. Members of the Kingsguard. Thats another set.
    I believe Dayne's miscarriage and suicide comes from having sex with Rheagar and her still-born daughter was the daughter that the dragon prince was expecting. I think Dayne told Ned where the Tower of Joy was and then killed herself after it resulted in the death of her brother.

    Quote Originally Posted by KiLL CoLD View Post
    Oh and there was a set of twins mentioned in The Princess and The Queen, or , The Blacks and The Greens. Ser Erryk Cargyll and Ser Arryk Carhyall. Members of the Kingsguard. Thats another set.
    Quote Originally Posted by Irishsara View Post
    The only one i can possibly think of are the Fowler twins, and im pretty sure they are dragon blooded. I completely forgot about the Cargyll twins on the King's Guard. So yeah, the twins thing you might have a point. ( Lady Olenna has those two guys too but I dunno if they are ever mentioned as twins)
    Yeah I noticed that already. (dude I cannot express how much i hate GRRM for giving us half the Dance i just got a digital copy of Rogues and its a prequel to the Dance)
    Last edited by Irishsara; 04-30-2014 at 01:43 PM.

  36. #76
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    I'm sorry. Either you're quoting/replying to yourself, or I'm really stoned.
    I think it's awesome that the word lisp has an "s" in it.

  37. #77
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    Yeah my fault, I didnt hit paste.

    When I first read Game of Thrones i found in my notes that i thought Jon was Brandon Stark's Bastard with Ashara Dayne and that Ned was raising him to keep safe his wife's memory of his dead brother.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irishsara View Post
    (dude I cannot express how much i hate GRRM for giving us half the Dance i just got a digital copy of Rogues and its a prequel to the Dance)
    Cant find a copy anywhere I dont wanna buy the entire book.

  39. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by KiLL CoLD View Post
    Cant find a copy anywhere I dont wanna buy the entire book.
    Rogues gets released on June 17 2014.

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    I'm starting to think Sansa might be the next most likely character to complete her entire Swords arc. I could see Lysa getting hers by episode 7, and the season ending on the slower but just-as-tense note of the Royces coming up the mountain to confront and possibly remove Petyr.
    Last edited by Smart_Mark; 05-01-2014 at 07:59 PM.
    I think it's awesome that the word lisp has an "s" in it.

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