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Thread: Doctor Who

  1. #1
    Senior Member SirSam's Avatar
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    Doctor Who

    I just watched the Doctor Who Christmas Special and figured I might not be the only one who saw it and wanted to talk about it.

    SPOILERS BELOW

    It was a bit of a funny episode, very emotive and really nice in how it wrapped up the 12th Doctor with some great speeches and call backs to the characters that had an impact on him. However the actual plot of the episode felt a little anti-climactic in the end as the villain was built up then revealed to not be a bad guy after all and it became a bit more of a conflict within the doctor about letting go of the past and allowing himself to move on.

    SPOLIERS OVER

    But what did you think? Even if you didn't watch it I'd love to talk some Doctor Who. Who are your fav doctors? Your fav companions? Classic or New Who? Fav Storylines?

    So many possibilities.

  2. #2
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    I only caught the last twenty minutes in the end.

    I have seen most of the new stuff and a few bits and pieces of the older ones. I'm not the most obsessive fan of the show by any means but I am usually happy to go along with it.

  3. #3
    The Brain
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    I haven't seen any of the last season but I was current up to that point with all the post reboot stuff, and I've seen some of the original stuff as well. The old stuff is fun if you can deal with the obviously cheesy effects and make allowances for stories which sometimes drag a bit, and I love the sheer size of the continuity, even if it's shaky in the details.

    I am a MASSIVE fan of Eccleston, the first Doctor after it came back, and I was gutted that he only got one season and hasn't come back for any of the specials. Liked Tennant a lot as well. Was not a huge Matt Smith fan, he did alright but he had a lot to live up to, and his run had a LOT of convoluted storylines that ended up looking like sheer nonsense even under the most generous "timey-wimey" lens. Thought Capaldi did a very good job with a different take on the character, didn't love all of the material he was given but by and large he was a lot of fun. At some point I'll catch up with his last season and get into the new Doctor, whom I'm looking forward to a lot.

  4. #4
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    Doctor Who is my favorite show of all time. I didn't even start watching it until 2013, watched all of New Who AND all of classic Who in like 2 years lol.

    I don't love every episode or storyline... The latest Christmas special was pretty bad save a few moments. Mainly because of the over the top nature of pointing out the first doctor's sexism... Which wasn't even a huge part of the character. The non villain didn't bother me, it was a nice change of pace from what we usually get.


    My favorite doctor is Tennant, he just brought so much to the role.

  5. #5
    The Brain
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    My favorite thing about the First Doctor is he looked like he was gonna straight up murder someone with a rock in the very first arc. That's probably more about the character not being defined yet, but I like to think it ties into the way he left Gallifrey and his state of mind at the time. I also dug his relationship with his granddaughter.

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    The first Doctor can be very grumpy early on, he turns more lovable grandfather towards the end. Capaldi's first series reminded me of the First doctor... and the first doctor is also paternalistic, everyone younger is my dear, my child, my boy lol..

    I think Moffat took this to mean that the First Doctor was overtly sexist but that's not really the case.

  7. #7
    The Brain
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    Frankly Moffat kind of drives me crazy. Sometimes he gets good ideas but he ends up executing them so ridiculously that I can barely enjoy them. Take River Song. I won't do any spoilers, but she started as a truly brilliant concept character but every time you saw her, more and more ridiculous things are piled on to her history to the point where she's barely tolerable or comprehensible. I know some people still love the character but I can't stand her anymore, thanks to Moffat.

  8. #8
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    I agree to some point... I think Moffat is actually a pretty good writer, inventive, out of the box type stuff (Blink is one of favorite episodes of all time, Girl in the Fireplace) but as a show runner, he's not as good. He falls in love with his creations, and the executions of his arcs really aren't the best. I to think River is a brilliant concept, and I still enjoy her (The christmas special with Capaldi is really sweet.) but the extra baggage added to the character is annoying.

    I don't think we'll be seeing her again with Chibnall taking over.

  9. #9
    Senior Member SirSam's Avatar
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    For me Moffat is a guy with some great concepts that get so utterly tangled up and convoluted when executing them and the bigger the concept the more silly it got to bring it all together. That is what most hindered the 11th doctor for me. Had some utterly brilliant stand alone episodes and I loved Amy & Rory as companions but damn were some of the storylines just a bit much.

    I have watched next to no Old Who but seen New Who all the way through at least three times. My favourite of the new doctors would be Capaldi but that is very close with Tennant, Eccelston really suffers from not having as long to develop his character and all of them are better than Matt Smith who had some brilliant moments but really got lost in the bush.

    The sexisim joke in the Christmas Episode was funny the first time but really fell flat when they repeated it multiple times.

    Really it was an episode all about Capaldi's doctor giving awesome speeches which was the best part of his doctor generally anyway.

  10. #10
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    I kinda saw those sexist jokes as much as Moffat having a bit of fun with his own reputation as someone who doesn't write well for women.

    I'm a fan of his, but to be honest that doesn't have a lot to do with Dr Who, it goes back to his earlier days as a showrunner. But I think there is probably a bit of a consensus here that when Dr Who changed from being mostly a villain of the week, family friendly saturday afternoon show towards something that was more obviously sci-fi, adult and ongoing story arcs, that happened really in the move from Russell T. Davies to Moffat.

  11. #11
    Senior Member SirSam's Avatar
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    I disagree that Davies didn't do long term story stuff. Season 1 and 3 stand out in particular with blending that long term story arc style that is dropping hints through and building a meta story across multiple smaller episodes. Season 3 does it particularly well.

    I think I have been a bit harsh on Moffat though in my past posts. At his best he has done some brilliant things. The episode with Van Gough is possibly my favourite episode and Capalidi was a fantastic take on the doctor that was very different to the previous Doctors.
    Last edited by SirSam; 12-28-2017 at 12:43 AM.

  12. #12
    Samuel Plan
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    I adore Dr Who. It's such a hopeful, optimistic show amidst a lot of dark or gritty or realistic stuff. And the Doctor is such a compelling hero. I've loved it ever since I was a kid, when I would get up early every Saturday and Sunday and watch omnibus repeats of old serials, and it's about the only show I still watch religiously and always will. I think it's more important than ever in the current global political climate especially.

    Though I retain a genuinely near-phobic fear of Waxwork dummies from when I watched Spearhead from Space as a kid.... They legit send me into a real panic!

    I thought Capaldi was immense and a lot of his episodes were home runs for me. The Zygon Inversion/Invasion is a genuine classic especially. His speech still gets me every time.

    My biggest gripe these days is the way regenerations get over-written. The last three have all been fourth wall breaking, self-important nonsense and that's really taken me out of the moment. Capaldi monologuing to thin air was, frankly, ridiculous.

  13. #13
    Senior Member SirSam's Avatar
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    Yes, completely agree with the Zygon Inversion/Invasion double episodes, absolute classics. They were such great commentary on some of the issues we are dealing with today, as every great sci fi should. That speech was an air puncher.

    Because it's not a game, Kate. This is a scale model of war. Every war ever fought, right there in front of you. Because it's always the same. When you fire that first shot, no matter how right you feel, you have no idea who's going to die! You don't know whose children are going to scream and burn! How many hearts will be broken! How many lives shattered! How much blood will spill until everybody does until what they were always going to have to do from the very beginning.

    I fought in a bigger war than you will ever know. I did worse things than you could ever imagine. And when I close my eyes I hear more screams than anyone could ever be able to count! And do you know what you do with all that pain? Shall I tell you where you put it? You hold it tight till it burns your hand, and you say this. No one else will ever have to live like this. No one else will have to feel this pain. Not on my watch!
    I also loved the final episodes of Season 10, a great take on the Cyber Men and the way Missy/The Master came back was a great ending for the character.

  14. #14
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    I'm doing my first rewatch up to "The Snowmen" So I won't really talk about the Zygon double eps from Series 9 just yet but will say, the speech about war is brilliant. Capaldi gives great speeches.

    Also agree with Plan on the regeneration monologues, as much as I love Capaldi's doctor, I thought the speech missed the mark. Not only that, but can we get rid of the tardis blowing up every regeneration? Its beyond annoying at this point and you figure the Doctor would be smart enough to have it outside the Tardis at this point lol.

  15. #15
    Samuel Plan
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    It's a Moff thing, the speeches, I guess. I mean he did 11 and 12 both. 10 was as much of a dumb fourth wall break but had the dignity of being only one line. Though I didn't care for it, that's more because I didn't care for Ten who was always insufferably arrogant even by the Doctor's standards.

    8 and 9 (my two Doctors) I felt were spot on and felt perfectly in character for both. Hopefully Chibnall will take us back there. He already seems to be after something older school with three companions on the TARDIS team! I'm very excited for the next series.

    Generally I liked Moffat more than Davies as a show runner, but I did get sick of Moff treating the show like his personal playground for giggles only he seemed to be having mainly, and playing God with the complex continuity a little too frequently.

  16. #16
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    Ten is my Doctor, when i first stated watching the show, the first series I liked with Nine but I wasn't hooked really until Tennant. I love all the stuff with Rose, and some of my favorite eps are from Tennant's era, I even like the last line although to be fair, it is weird cause if Tennant really didn't want to go, he wouldn't have left lols.. The show was immensely popular then.

    As for the Moffat vs Davies debate... I think they both have strengths and actually if they were a team together, i think we'd get a great show.. Davies major strength is making you invest in secondary characters so well like Rose's family, Wilf and a few others. Moffat barely touched on the family aspect, but he did some really creative things that I honestly don't see much of in Davies work... Not to say that Davies was worse.

    Bit of a jumble there, but I have to say, I'm nervous with Chibnall taking over. His episodes he's written for Doctor Who aren't that impressive. I did think his show Broadchurch was pretty darn good though.

    I'm unsure about 3 companions at one time, It's worked before in Classic who but you only have 45 mins to tell most stories now and i fear one companion or more would get lost in the shuffle.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by SirSam View Post
    I disagree that Davies didn't do long term story stuff.
    Must have given the wrong impression becasue I wasn't trying to say that he didn't. I meant that it's more pronounced in Moffat. I mean, in the Davies era you could basically pick it up anywhere and catch up on the arc. Sure you'll miss details, but it didn't matter for that episode, really. Try that with Moffat and it's much more likely you'll quickly be lost as the individual one hours are less frequent than the ones that are completely given over to the underpinning story.

    But that shouldn't be a surprise. Davies had the task of builiding an audience. By the time Moffat came along, everyone knew what the show was about and you were either in or you were out. He didn't need to try and hook people with every single episode and was afforded a broader canvas.

    I'm just impressed that you all know exactly who you mean when you talk about the eighth, tenth, or whatever. I know I'm probably the least keen on the show here but after Jon Pertwee I'd probably have to look up who relates to what number.

  18. #18
    Samuel Plan
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    Allow me!

    1. First - William Hartnell.
    2. Second - Patrick Troughton.
    3. Third - John Pertwee.
    4. Fourth - Tom Baker.
    5. Fifth - Peter Davidson.
    6. Sixth - Colin Baker.
    7. Seventh - Sylvester McCoy.
    8. Eighth - Paul McGann.
    9. 'War Doctor' - John Hurt.
    10. Ninth - Christopher Eccleston.
    11. Tenth - David Tennant.
    12. *Regeneration skipped*
    13. Eleventh - Matt Smith.

    Cycle Two

    14. Twelfth - Peter Capaldi.
    15. Thirteenth - Jodie Whittaker.

    The numbers falling out of synch was another Moffat complication...

  19. #19
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    I've never seen an episode. The whole thing just looks ridiculous to me!

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eddieg2005 View Post
    I've never seen an episode. The whole thing just looks ridiculous to me!
    You realise you posted a whole column in the Star Wars thread, right?!

  21. #21
    Senior Member SirSam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 'Plan View Post
    The numbers falling out of synch was another Moffat complication...
    I think it was also a problems with Chris Eccelston not wanting to come back for the 50 year anniversary episode, I think he would have originally been treated War Doctor.

    You put down that 10 skipped a regeneration, are you talking about how he grew a duplicate ordid I miss/forget something?

  22. #22
    Samuel Plan
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    Yeah, it was that cheat with the severed hand and Donna and them creating some human hybrid thing that they dropped in the parallel universe.... It used up one of his regenerations.

    That still winds me up.
    101 WWE Matches To See Before You Die: The Book is now available to buy on Amazon UK, Amazon US and Amazon Europe! Just search for "101 WWE Matches" and it'll pop up!

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  23. #23
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    I am intrigued that there is so much international interest in the show. It seems so quintessentially British to me. Non-UK people, how'd you go about getting into the show?

  24. #24
    Senior Member SirSam's Avatar
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    It has been broadcast on the ABC, our main government funded free-to-air channel here in Australia. They take a lot of BBC shows and Doctor Who is one of the larger ones, they even put it on their online stream as soon as it has been aired in Britian so the super keen Whovians can start watching early. It is always one of their higher raning shows so I imagine there is a fair fan base here in Australia.

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    Here in the US, it airs on BBC America and does alright ratings, best BBC America does really.. but that channel is not huge here. I really just learned about it on twitter and went from there. I didn't grow up around it or even heard about it until i got the internet because when i was growing up, there was no Doctor Who on air. Started watching it on Netflix, caught up then embarked on classic who... which let me tell you would have been quite expensive if it wasn't for Dailymotion. This was before the Britbox service where you can watch pretty much every Classic who epsiode barring the missing eps and a few Dalek ones not licensed for the service.

  26. #26
    Senior Member SirSam's Avatar
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    I do wonder what the new series is going to be like, new doctor, new series lead.

    I particularly liked 42 and The Power of Three, two of the episode he previously wrote and Broadchurch has to be one of the absolute best shows I've seen in recent years so my hopes are high. With any new writer and doctor there always seems to be a feeling out process. I feel like with the change in gender the certain sections of fan base may give them a little room for error early on before throwing their toys out of the cot.

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    I agree that we should give Chibnall time but I've also seen alot of fans who are not pleased in the least that the Doctor is a woman and if they watch, will be pretty critical of anything amiss. Me personally, I don't see it as a big deal...except the the traits of the character like running away, talking things through... might have to be reworked for the character now.

    The unknown is exciting but makes me nervous too lol. I wish we had new eps sooner.

  28. #28
    The Brain
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    I've long thought it silly that the Doctor always stresses he could regenerate as anything, yet he always comes back looking more or less the same, even down to his accent in many incarnations. I know there are demographic reasons for that but still, it was past time to try something outside the box.

  29. #29
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    I do wonder what would have happened if Doctor Who was an American show in that you probably wouldn't have strictly Americans in the Doctor role eventually but also believe that since American TV isn't done like British TV, it probably wouldn't have lasted as long as it has.

    I don't feel like Doctor Who has to be progressive in this sense but once you open the door to changing genders, it was inevitable to happen. The Doctor is the last sort of character that must be a man.

  30. #30
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    This will be a conversation topic for you. The Radio Times ranked all The Doctor's a couple of days ago. Here they are, from worst to best.

    Colin Baker
    Sylvester McCoy
    Peter Davison
    Patrick Troughton
    Paul McGann
    William Hartnell
    Jon Pertwee
    John Hurt
    Christopher Eccleston
    Tom Baker
    Matt Smith
    Peter Capaldi
    And in first place, David Tennant.


    Seems like a list biased heavily towards the new, to me, but I wonder what the real Whovians think of it?

  31. #31
    Samuel Plan
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    Well I think it's nonsense! The bottom two seem about right to me, but I'd personally only rank Tennant middle of the pack. His stories don't hold up all that well anymore and often come off as rather CITV, honestly. He's also a horrendous over-actor.

    Genuinely shocked to see Baker underneath Matt Smith too. Matt was great but I never expected him to become more beloved than Tom; and good for Peter too being so high! I reckon his spot is well earned and deserved. Eccleston I think is spot on too. His season was terrific.

    McGann is really my Doctor, so while I'm disappointed to see him so low I do recognise he had minimal screen time. Most of his stuff is audio or novelized so I guess that goes some way to plonking him low. Had he had a proper run, I feel he'd be much higher though.

    The only one I'm genuinely appalled by is Patrick Troughton. He really set out what the Doctor has become after Hartnell established the show. You see shades of Patrick in almost every other single Doctor, and he had a number of iconic stories too. That's irksome, seeing him so low down.

    John Hurt is too high. He had only the one story in the 50th special, and honestly I never got a real Doctorish feel from him; though maybe that was the point, given the story.

  32. #32
    Lamb of LOP anonymous's Avatar
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    I agree 100% with ‘Plan. I need a lie down.

  33. #33
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    Hurt doesn't even belong on the list imo, as great an actor he is, he doesn't play the doctor really in the 50th anniversary special. It is new series bias though.. Troughton, Hartnell and even McCoy all deserve to be higher. (McCoy is a victim of the era when he's actually a really great doctor that brought something different to the role.) As much as I love Tennant, I'd have Tom Baker at number 1.

  34. #34
    Lamb of LOP anonymous's Avatar
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    Iíll bite as itís clearly heading that way.

    For me itís:

    Least to best...
    Colin Baker
    Matt Smith
    Paul McGann
    William Hartnell
    Peter Davison
    Sylvester McCoy
    Peter Capaldi
    Jon Pertwee
    Christopher Eccleston
    David Tennant
    Tom Baker
    Patrick Troughton
    Last edited by anonymous; 01-09-2018 at 08:43 PM. Reason: Clarification

  35. #35
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    Mine is (From top to bottom)

    Tom Baker
    David Tennant
    Patrick Troughton
    Peter Capaldi
    William Hartnell
    Slyvester McCoy
    Matt Smith
    Paul McGann
    Christopher Eccleston
    Colin Baker
    Peter Davison
    Jon Pertwee


    Note my rankings account for audio too I love Big Finish (Colin Baker improves there) also, I like all doctors to some extent, Pertwee being my least favorite. Top four are adored by me, next tier, loved, then Baker, Davison, Pertwee liked.

  36. #36
    Samuel Plan
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    Eesh, that's difficult man. Let's try...

    1. McGann (my Doctor!)
    2. Eccleston
    3. Troughton
    4. Capaldi
    5. Hartnell
    6. Smith
    7. Pertwee
    8. T. Baker
    9. Davison
    10. Tennant
    11. C. Baker
    12. McCoy
    13. Hurt

    I know it's an unusual order, maybe even a bit hipster, but got to be honest!

  37. #37
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    1.T. Baker
    2, Troughton
    3. Smith
    4. Ecclestone
    5. Pewtree
    6. Capaldi
    7. Hartnell
    8. Davison
    9. C. Baker
    10. McCoy
    11. McGann
    12. Tennant

  38. #38
    Samuel Plan
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    Not a Tennant fan, like me, eh?

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