Got a message for Shane and mizfan? Maybe want to express your opinion about a specific WCW PPV, wrestler or storyline that they've discussed on the show? Perhaps you'd like to bring up something you thought that they didn't spend enough time on?
This is the place to do it, as you can use this thread to unearth the forgotten (or overlooked) narratives of WCW: The Legacy Series!
Bash beach 1999 hope u mention ddp falling of top rope and macho man loses belt in 24hrs
At least Bash 99 has the Triad vs Saturn/Benoit match, because (as I recall) the rest of it is an absolute trash factory.
The Rap is Crap elimination is good too. The rest is... just so awful.
Here's my hottest take, the Junkyard Invitational was the third best match on the card. It wasn't good at all but holy crap, the stuff that was in the arena was even worse.
DDP probably should have died when he fell off the top to the floor like that. The fact that he miraculously saved it is some kind of metaphor for his career, probably.
Really enjoy this podcast when I'm off work. Just listened to the fall brawl 99 one. Man it brings back some bad memories, but hearing the commentating on this obscure time is interesting.
Thanks, Mr Butts! It's fun to watch Shane relive some bad memories while I make all new ones.
The interesting thing, for me, is that WCW had fucked up so much by the time Russo took over that I'm not sure it's worse, PPV-wise, for having Russo. It might be because Nash booking seemed to borrow heavily from the climate that had already been created, in part, by guys like Russo. I'm wondering if I will have to start separating greater damage to WCW (which many, many can take part in) and greater damage to the concept and application of pro wrestling on the whole (which, for me, Russo will still shine as one of the greats when it comes to greatly fucking up what is known as pro wrestling).
Edit:
*This is referring to the first run of Russo
**Every time I think about the ugly, stupid face of Evan Karagias I want to change my mind
***I need more time to think through the battle of Nash v. Russo I
Last edited by shane; 12-31-2017 at 01:02 PM.
I've never watched a lot of the Russo era. I watched some of the beginning of the new blood and thought it was ok...but quickly takes a turn for the worst. It's hard to imagine a time worse than 1999 but when the title changes hands every month, I think you may really be in the end there. What I've seen from 2001 looked a bit better, judging by today's standards, but not very good for what wrestling was back then.
I do think there is a time coming that is worse than anything we've covered, but that is for 2000 to decide.
Not sure WCW ever had a plan beyond "ride the nWo wave to the destruction of WWF."
These last few years are going to take a lot of deconstructing when all is said and done. I do really wonder what lies beyond the end of the Russo/Bischoff collaboration disaster of 2000, there's a solid period with neither of them around at the end that might have some really interesting stuff.
I've often expressed regret for being so busy while doing this series. I was thinking, after WWF: TLS, we will have stretched that timeline out well. A deep dive might be in order. A few special editions, something like Figures of the Legacy Series. We could read books by guys like Bischoff or Russo, listen to interviews from others, and dissect who did what, who is now lying, etc. One on Nash, too. Maybe Bill Watts. Hit the who, what, how, and why of each era. We might review texts like the Death of WCW as well.
Before we say there's nothing worse, we will enter a time where announcers will talk openly about "the script", world titles will change hands weekly, and Vince Russo himself will wear the crown. Still, it's not Randy Savage having shit poured on him by Kevin Nash. We really are being forced into a shitty game of would you rather.
You're not kidding about that!! At some point the proverbial poke in the eye with a sharp stick starts to look pretty appealing as an alternative...
Mystic, you know I'm always up for any special editions you can throw at me.
If you want to feel like we haven't accomplished a damn thing, read the comments in the news thread where Mick Foley talks about thinking his title win was the wrong decision.
BB. I only think Nash might be worse because there was still more potential for WCW at the time. I have no doubt that Russo, if given the job at that time, could have done the same. I'm also not factoring in some of what you mention because it's not here yet, and I cringe to approach it. We have one more episode to record before we start 2000.
mizfan. sounds good! We have a long, winding path still ahead, in WCW and beyond it.
I think Russo sucks. Man I hate that guy.
Same. You wouldn't believe this world though. We actually have someone coming on our show--get this--in defense of Vince Russo.Originally Posted by TimR
That sounds terrible. I’ll probably listen to it though. Sometimes things that are terrible tend to get the most attention. This guy sounds like he has horrible taste though.
It was a good conversation. I do wonder if dude was trolling just to get on air. Easier for me to believe than a pro-Russo POV.
Seriously though, what I took from it is being pro-Russo requires a completely different frame on pro wrestling than I come with. It's like a whole different genre.
That’s exactly it. A different genre with wrestling sprinkled in. We could’ve saved ourselves 30 minutes of torture had we just started with that because that’s probably the best way it could’ve been phrased. That’s what I was trying to get at when I said I know you guys like wrestling and it needs to be about wrestling that ends with wrestling, but obviously your way is clearer and more succinct. When Russo writes it’s like someone who writes a TV show and just adds in a wrestling ring.
But as someone who just wants shit to happen it worked for me. It didn’t always make sense, but the effort was there.
I mention this on Starrcade, I think, but I feel like Russo should have used his success in WWF and WWF's mainstream success to move into hollywood instead of WCW. Then you don't have to worry about getting rid of the ring. Plus, that was the era of spoof movies, so he could have transitioned well.
That was also the show where we discovered that Russo is, in fact, a victim of his own neuroses, helplessly swerving himself even on his own swerves.
Got a feeling his getting into the business and getting pushed out both have something to do with his ability to swerve.
After his initial success in WWF, everyone thought he would be one of the most successful figures in wrestling. Since then it's all been one long swerve!
haha, indeed.
I need to watch Souled Out tonight. Tomorrow we begin recording 2000 in TLS.
I'd like to know who people think are the bright spots or the ones to watch in WCW 2000-2001. This is all uncharted for me.
I'm hopeful 3 Count will be fun. Beyond that I don't know a whole lot.
Timely from Vince Russo:
On long WWE matches:
"Back in the Attitude Era when we had our matches, it was 'Crash TV.' We were in and out of everything because we knew back then people had short attention spans, so we had to bring them along to the next thing, don't lose it, move it," Russo said. "When I hear 'short attention span' the matches now are going longer than they ever had before so that's where I'm like, well, the short attention span gets shorter daily but the matches keep going on longer and longer. I am not a fan of the long matches."
Read more at http://www.lordsofpain.net/news/wwe/...UKX0RikAlXy.99
....
I'm always confused as to whether Russo is the smartest dumb person or the dumbest smart person. He is forever one of those.
Russo hates long matches? Shocking!! I don't think a single PPV match went over 15 minutes on his watch in WCW...
WWE today is more popular than WCW then. Attention spans are shorter now (according to this). WWE matches now are longer than WCW matches under Russo.
Hm....
Just listened to spring stampede...from the ppvs I've seen some of during the Russo era, it only gets worse from here.
Spring Stampede makes a strong case for being the worst WCW PPV from top to bottom that I have seen, but there are individual moments that put it to shame... THAT promo from Bash at the Beach comes to mind, as does "What are they supposed to do now, improvise?".
They are already all running together for me. Was GAB a particular nightmare or am I just remembering 1992?
Flair vs. Flair, Steiner Asylum Match, Human Torch match, Jarrett vs. Nash... yeah, it was pretty god awful! It's really hard for me to erase the image of Vince Russo shrieking "bitch!" over and over at a 14 year old Charlotte Flair.
I do believe Russo gets worse with time. If, for nothing else, once he sets his pace of destruction, he has to find ways to up it as he goes.
Out of curiosity once I made a mistake of watching the Flair-Douglas match during the Russo era. Ya know, here's two guys that had a cross promotional thing for a long time, and they finally wrestled. But Vince Russo ruins everything. To me it gets worse and worse because things matter less and less. Too bad he couldn't hire Howard Stern and make Fart Man the world champion. I bet that's one guy who'd of held the belt for a lengthy, unheard of 2 months.
The worst thing about the Flair/Douglas match is, against all odds, it's actually not bad at all right up to the moment that Russo completely ruins it by sending in David fucking Flair to betray his father for something like the third time in a year in the stupidest way imaginable. I think that's also the segment where Russo starts crotch chopping so violently that he should have ended up a registered sex offender.
Oh, and speaking of Stern, don't forget he brought in Sterm rip-off artist "Mancow" to wrestle Jimmy Hart on PPV...
I never knew that match happened...geez who wants to see a Jimmy Hart cat fight?
Just went back and listened to the coverage of Wrestle War 89 from you guys. Great work! Especially bringing out the magic of the Funk/Flair segment...the rejection...the awkwardness. The thing became so lengendary for so long and I've seen it so many times over so many yrs that I forgot how I felt the first time I saw it until I heard that coverage ....really great work from Flair, Ross, and especially Funk
I mean, 2000 WCW was just poorly run top to bottom. They paid James Brown $25,000 to show up and dance at Superbrawl to draw viewers but never advertised his appearance, they paid KISS $500,000 and promised main event spots to the KISS demon, they spent $50,000 on an advertising campaign for Nitro that didn't run until the Thursday after that Nitro aired.
Russo, there's all sorts of issues with - supposedly in his first three months booking the shows they lost half of their PPV revenue, even outside of his particular booking style and so on. But there were tons of issues in WCW outside of Russo, and they all added up.
The guy I actually feel kind of sorry for in the history of WCW is David Arquette, who was pretty much just doing a job. He supposedly pushed hard to not be made champion knowing that fans wouldn't like it, but Russo ignored him. He also seems to be a good dude - he gave his earnings from WCW to the families of Hart, Pillman, and Drozdov. I know that most appreciate it was the booking and not him that was the issue, but he seems to get his name tarred a lot in the history of the company.
The really sad part is that Jimmy Hart/Mancow match isn't even in the bottom 10 worst WCW PPV matches of 2000...
God, thinking back to Wrestlewar '89 feels like a different life time. I truly believe that was the single greatest thing we covered in the series.
Yeah, WCW 2000 is pretty bad. And that's coming from someone who kind of likes the KISS Demon! PPV buyrates do take a permanent dive when Russo first comes in. I've heard it argued that he was tasked with concentrating on ratings only, but even that falls flat when you look at the fact that those two fell quickly after a small initial bump. In the end, the company lost $69 million in an 18 month period, most of it under Russo. Even under Nash's lousy booking they remained profitable, which should tell you a lot.
Completely agree that I am not down on Arquette himself. He honestly looks like he's trying his best, and the fact that he donated all his earnings to deserving causes goes a long way for me. He just never should have been in that position. But hey, his title win got a full page spread in USA Today, which is of course the primary goal of any booker worth their salt!
Listened to my first episode of the Legacy Series today because it is sometimes fun to hear about an utter dumpster fire. Have to say you guys handled the absolute shit show in an absolutely hilarious but also informative manner. Loved how you dissected why this shoot stuff is so damaging to pro wrestling but your outrage was so hilarious too.
Might go back and listen to the triple cage episode when I'm done.
So glad you liked it! The dumpster fire stuff is a lot of fun, but my favorite episodes are back when WCW was doing great, so if you've a mind to dig up some old stuff I don't think you'll be disappointed.
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