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Thread: The Seth Rollins Thread

  1. #1
    Samuel Plan
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    The Seth Rollins Thread

    How on earth does The Architect not have a thread of his own?!

    As an unashamed, proud super-fan of Rollins (I admit it, I never followed him on the Indys...), I felt compelled to create a thread for him here.

    I guess I'll kick the conversation off by stating outright I remain steadfast in my hopes that WWE call something of an audible and switch up 'Mania plans so that Rollins can complete his redemption arc by winning the Universal Championship in the main event of WrestleMania. I sadly, highly doubt it though. I heard somewhere he might challenge Lesnar at the Rumble though. Given that the Rumble is my favourite show of the year, I could totally live with that. In fact, I'd rather quite love it!
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    He doesn't have a thread, because he's been downgraded to a glorified upper mid-carder. Also, I believe Finn Balor is next to a get a shot at Brock, though with how utterly atrocious this feud with Bray has been, perhaps plans might change.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Oliver's Avatar
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    I'm not so sure on that, Allystare - I think he'll certainly be back up in a major storyline come Mania that is on a main event level, even if it isn't for the main title. I personally still thinkWWE are looking at running a second Shield Triple Threat as a major storyline for Mania, and the Reigns title plans are at least being momentarily shelved in favour of doing that.

    'Plan, how does the Rollins redemption arc ending with a Mania title win work? Other than being a mirror of his initial title win, that is - surely the redemption arc is done now that he's reunited with Ambrose and then got the Shield back together as well? Is he not already redeemed?

  4. #4
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    In the mid to long term, I don't see how they can overlook Rollins. But like Oli, I'm not sure the redemption arc leads back to the world title. In fact, right now I'd say I don't know where the next Rollins title reign is actually going to happen. I'm sure he'll have at least another one by the time he is 35 but it doesn't seem to be in the plans right now.

  5. #5
    Samuel Plan
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    His redemption was never just about Ambrose, or The Shield. It's all in the things he said leading up to his match with Triple H. He spoke a lot about how he lost everything that made him who he was to stand next to The Game and sacrificed every part of his identity for the easy successes he got fed as the golden boy of the Authority. To me, his redemption arc has always been about regaining the best version of himself - that means proving he can do what he's done before without the Authority. Rollins is driven by his addiction to success, and his greatest strength is his inhuman will power to attain it.

    I've long felt the best option at 'Mania was to complete two arcs that started at the last 'Mania: Rollins redeeming himself by capturing the World title without surrendering to his own vices, and Reigns succumbing to the worst part of himself because of the success he's gorged on since 'retiring' The Undertaker - all fueled by Rollins warning Reigns about the path he's on, because Rollins has already walked it and barely come out the other side.

    Sadly, though, WWE want to apparently focus on everyone and anyone not of the contemporary generation unless they're named Roman Reigns. I find that a shame, and a waste of what could be a stellar story.
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    I dunno man. Surely the arc completes in that way not by Rollins winning, but by losing to a shield buddy with similar temptation but being man enough to turn it down but shake hands after the loss?

    You can start a new story that leads to the title afterwards but having him just win now seems a far smaller journey.

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    I actually like that idea a lot. If it's a true redemption arc, that's a lot more compelling to me.

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    Senior Junior SirSam's Avatar
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    I like what you've said there 'Plan about the contrast of Reigns and Rollins and how they have kind of gone in different directions.

    I wrote about this in my main page column and I think that a big part of Rollins redemption is winning the tag belts with Ambrose and realising that the success he desires is so much better when it is done the right way. This time he didn't need to self-righteously justify himself or try to puff out his chest with false bravado, this time he and his brother just got to own the ring as the rightful champions.

    I really want them to confront how Reigns has changed, it is so obvious and leans into the way the audience wants to react. Even in their most recent entrance while Rollins and Ambrose celebrated being back together Reigns tried to pick a fight with Angle, you could even see Ambrose and Rollins look at him like, "dude WTF?"

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    It could actually be the angle that sorts out the Reigns character, if they are willing to put the hard yards in. I'm not sure they have that kind of thing in mind, however. They don't seem to really like working too hard on characters and characterisation nowadays. A lot of the people who actively want to be pleased will invent stuff to fill the gaps, and a lot of people who really don't want to be pleased will shit on it regardless. Why spend so much time trying to please that group of people in the middle?

    So here's the question. Seth and Dean, tag champs. While there's a hint of thrown together team about them the backstory probably does a lot to mitigate that and it's not the worst thing for the belts to have these guys running with it. But presumably, in the middle to longer term, the plans are for these two to revert to being singles wrestlers. So my question is, is there any chance of these two working as an active and ongoing team at, say, the Royal Rumble, or even Wrestlemania - or do you think it's inevitable that they'll have lost the belts and be working their own programme by then?

  10. #10
    The Brain
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    A lot of the people who actively want to be pleased will invent stuff to fill the gaps, and a lot of people who really don't want to be pleased will shit on it regardless. Why spend so much time trying to please that group of people in the middle?
    Is it possible those people in the middle are the same people who lost interest and left specifically because they didn't want to invent or complain if WWE couldn't be bothered? I know I'm not typical, but that's basically what I did...

    I would guess they'll be split by that time. I think what would be most appealing is to (finally) turn Ambrose and have a remix of his feud with Rollins with the dynamic flipped. Ambrose is established as unbalanced so you could easily pass his willingness to work with Rollins for now as a long game to exact a more devastating revenge, and he'll still come off as the heel (especially if he betrays Rollins in a big way) because he pretended everything was forgiven then went back on his word. Rollins/Ambrose was a feud worthy of 'Mania the first time, so I say time to put it where it belongs and give a big spotlight to two current guys in the meantime.

    Where does this leave Roman? Well he was basically outside the bubble when the Shield first broke up anyway, so he'll go right back to his own thing. Not very satisfying, but realistic in my view.

  11. #11
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    I'd like to see them still intact at the Rumble, just so this whole thing doesn't feel like a tiny little detour in their careers. If The Shield are genuinely going to be Horsemen, Freebirds, NWO level players when the end of the road comes then they are still too early in the run to be trotted out just as a temporary diversion. Honestly, I think that stuff will count against the legacy of D-X some day, but that's maybe a discussion for another thread.

    I don't see them running as a pack at Wrestlemania - and that's partly because I don't think the roster is in good enough shape to have two or even three of them wrapped up on one side in one match. Given how stacked the roster should be, that's saying something.

    But yeah, definitely like to see them still working together at the Rumble. Maybe lose the straps there, enter the Battle Royale later on, and have everything fall apart over the title. Could be fun.

  12. #12
    The Brain
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    It already counts against DX in my book! But DX's legacy is kind of overblown anyway, so...

    I could be down with them blowing up at the Rumble, actually. Would be a potentially great mid Rumble storyline.

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    Yes, it sort of writes itself, doesn't it? Could make for a great visual if they unpack it right. Plus it's only less than 3 months out until the Rumble, so I imagine you can probably keep the team together for that long without suffering anything.

    I don't see them going this route, but given that they are both seen as main event (or second main event, depending on who you talk to) talent and a genuine tag team, then you have to say that there are worse things than leaving the titles on them indefinitely. It ties them up a bit, of course, but you could build your tag title prestige up immeasurably by showing that these guys don't think of it as a step down.

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    Senior Member Oliver's Avatar
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    I'm quite keen on having them as the final three in the Rumble, now it's been mentioned...

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    The Brain
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    How about those three and Braun as the final 4, and it looks like the Shield are going to take out Strowman by a hair's breadth only to blow apart at the last minute and cost each other the match?

    I'm fine with Rollins & Ambrose as tag champs for a while, but I'd hope they drop the belts before 'Mania. If the tension between them leads them to drop back to The Bar, I'd be just fine with that.

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    Does Seth run as midcard face when the shield disbands again? I actually really like Seth and Dean in the tag role and haven't loved Seth singles matches since his injury. Plus his finisher blows. Wish he still used the curb stomp or even the pedigree. Not like Trips is gonna use it much.

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    The Brain
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    Depends on how they disband, honestly. If they do turn Ambrose heel and their feud revitalizes both guys, could be something very fresh. If they do a different way, who knows? Could be tough going for Rollins if so.

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    I think it works a bit better mid-Rumble to be honest. Seems a bit on the nose for the end of the match to me.

    I mean, Seth needs to come back to the main event sooner rather than later, once this dalliance ends.

  19. #19
    The Brain
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    At this point, I'd settle for the break up happening in any kind of dramatic fashion at all. I'd say there's a decent chance they just drift apart again after defeating whatever non-threat WWE puts in front of them.

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    That'd suck. If you don't want to split them dramatically then they need to stay at least loosely allied, even if they are chasing singles goals. They're constantly called 'brothers' so it's not just another team, and drifting would come with its own fallout

  21. #21
    Samuel Plan
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    Just getting back to this! My first preference was really for them to sort of get pulled apart by individual threats and naturally go about their business. The inherent risk of turning Ambrose heel against Rollins is in it simply watching as a continuation of the previous revenge arc...in which case Ambrose isn't really the bad guy. So if they do decide to go that route - which seems to make the most sense from a traditional POV I think - then they need to make sure to distance Ambrose's turn from any implication that it's revenge for Rollins' previous actions. That's perfectly do-able too, considering the apology arc we got in the summer that seemed to tie it all off.

    I actually think the Rumble match is the perfect place to begin seeding a WrestleMania feud for the two of them, in that traditional sort of way WWE used to but don't really anymore. You know, like Piper and Bad News Brown or Angle and HBK.
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    The Rumble absolutely needs to return to that kind of thing. It's become too much of a light-hearted lark in recent years. If you aren't sewing seeds for something to come given the opportunity that the format affords you, then what the hell are you doing?

    But you have hit on the difficulty in doing an Ambrose heel turn on Seth this soon. Short of having it be revenge, it's unlikely to ring true, and if it is revenge... I mean, Dean's still a heel, but who'd feel for Seth? Questionable writing at best.



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    i mean i'm not saying I'd feel for Seth but he apolgized, they put it behind them so for Dean to do it cause he holds a 3 year grudge is kinda shitty on his part. I would treat it more like Dean thinking I was a world champion on Smackdown and now i'm the third wheel running a reunion act. I don't need to be reigned in or controlled.. Fuck you Seth, Fuck Roman, Fuck the fans I'm Dean fucking Ambrose

    Without the swearing obviously. just seems to me like Dean wouldn't be happy in the end running with the shield again.

  24. #24
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    I mean yeah, it makes you dislike Dean for sure, but it puts Seth in a weird position. He's the blue-eye but he's guilty of the same thing that we are now meant to hate the other guy for. And though the incident itself was years ago, the apology and contrition was five minutes ago in the grand scheme of things.

    It's not a bad hand for Dean if you look at it in isolation, but it's a tricky one for Seth.



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    Samuel Plan
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    Especially when there was already a lot of sentiment about him not having earned any reason for cheers in the first place. But maybe that's the real challenge for him to sink his teeth into. I've long said his arc this last year has been about earning his status as a fan favourite back the hard way; a redemption arc, as we know. Maybe that's the next step. It's just one that could greatly backfire and accidentally reinstate an old status quo, or trash a new one before it gets going. As you said Prime, it'd be poor writing.

    I guess you can still do the turn for Dean if you want, but as I said before it ought to be unrelated to their history, presenting a new chapter in their continually evolving story together.
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    But I feel like cashing in on their history is exactly what would make an Ambrose turn compelling. Nobody was more irate at the Shield breakup than Ambrose, but now the fans have more or less accepted Rollins even though, as we said, he's not really done much to earn those cheers. It still feels like a great fit to me, and something people would be interested in seeing.

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    It's fine in the world as it is, because it's not like they worry about this stuff anyway, but the lack of a clear moral vindication for Seth in the case is a problem. Generally that lack is why it's almost impossible to be a babyface nowadays, and part of the reason even wrestling fans don't actually care about wrestling. It's either cool or not; virtually no one is actively invested in a real emotional way.



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    like i said before, Seth apologized and they moved on.. if you're waiting for some redemption arc that you know shows Seth in this great babyface light, its not gonna happen. WWE's storytelling is shallow at best.

    For me, it doesn't have to touch on the history but more the fact that Dean is crazy and sees himself in a different way so that eventually he could paranoid or delusional enough to think he doesn't need Seth or anyone. Esp when it comes to world titles being on the line.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyking View Post
    like i said before, Seth apologized and they moved on.. if you're waiting for some redemption arc that you know shows Seth in this great babyface light, its not gonna happen. WWE's storytelling is shallow at best.
    This first bit sounds like you're arguing against me but it feels like it's kind of what I am saying. The only difference is that you're happy enough to see the shallow storytelling and I am concerned about the burden it places on the talent.

    Seth apologising is enough to turn Dean heel. That bit is easy. It doesn't by itself give Seth the moral high ground. That makes it tough to be the babyface. Not impossible but he has to walk a very fine line or it will just be bad, and he won't work in the role.

    The way you can get around that most easily is time. The longer they are together, the more justified his vengeance would be. But if you want to do it early in 2018 you have to be careful in Seth's character just to avoid him coming off as a hypocritical whiner.



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  30. #30
    Senior Member Oliver's Avatar
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    The cynic in me says that WWE won't expect fans to remember what happened before between Seth and Dean, especially as now they've made up again.

    Personally I still like the idea of keeping them tagging for a much longer period than this WrestleMania. WWE has a whole crop of guys they can call upon in the main event scene right now to oppose a (presumably) face Reigns champion without needing to turn one of Rollins or Ambrose on the other and gain two more names that should be in the main event scene after their feud.

    My favourite scenario is still that Roman turns on them both and runs as a heel IC champion into a Mania triple threat. You split The Shield, but keep Ambrose and Rollins together. You can then take it two ways - keep Roman building and holding the IC strap, or continue the 'Rollins Redemption' by having him become a Grand Slammer at Mania.

    Failing that - flip those scenarios. Have Seth and Dean turn on Roman and both go heel, then have them as a heel tag team after Mania. I don't think Raw needs any more heel tags, mind you - and with The Revival surely due back I want to see them vs Ambrollins before anything else happens.

    Either way, I think splitting them at any point in the next 7-9 months would be for a short-term gain in their feud that doesn't benefit the long-term picture for WWE. One of them, at least, will be left floundering after their personal feud is done.

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    The cynic in me says that WWE won't expect fans to remember what happened before between Seth and Dean, especially as now they've made up again.
    Oh yeah, for sure. I'm not listing this as a reason I think they won't do it, because I don't have that much faith in it. I'm trying to demonstrate why, within this framework, it's a pretty bad idea.

    Can you imagine if the rest of The Shield turned on Roman, you'd have to work damn hard to stay heel. Might even be impossible.



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  32. #32
    Senior Junior SirSam's Avatar
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    So Seth has lost his partner and immediately moved onto another partner and beaten The Bar in a championship match yet again.

    The question is though, what is the long term plan now Dean is out? Where will he be at the Rumble? What kind of role does he play? Can he be inserted into the seemingly inevitable Reigns v Brock match as a true redo of Maina 31 or will he be occupied with someone else come Mania?

  33. #33
    Senior Member Oliver's Avatar
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    My guess is they run Rollins/Jordan headlong into a feud with The Revival and that deals with Mania.

    I'm guessing The Bar goes on the back burner now too, Sheamus was reported to have some kind of neck issue that he might need to rehab a while ago if I remember rightly. If you don't run the only two tag teams on Raw against each other at Mania, what do you with the titles?

    I can see Raw getting New Day or Usos in a draft this year.

  34. #34
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    I would be happy with The Revival against those two, pales in comparison to a potential Dean v Seth singles match but they would no doubt put on a pretty damn good match none the less.

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    If Ambrose is out a long time like to Summerslam as is believed, I figure they do the tag team thing til wrestlemania, do a turn by Jordan but Seth gets drafted to SD and then has a feud with AJ and some fresh guys on that brand. I've preferred Seth in the tag role since his injury but he's gonna go back singles, its just finding him the right dance partner. He's worked with everyone on Raw.

  36. #36
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    I would not hate him being drafted to Smackdown, would move him away from the Monsters Ball that is currently filling the Raw main event. It has been over a year and a half since he had a proper run as World Champion and going to Smackdown would place him across from some very tantalising matches with AJ, Nakamura, Roode Zayn & Owens (though we have seen the last one before).

    Im interested in how things shake out for him in the Royal Rumble, will potentially be a good indication of his roster position. Does Vince still see him as a top guy who is hanging out in the tag team division or will he be treated as fodder?

  37. #37
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    Not caught the Rollins/Jordan team yet, how is it working out?



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  38. #38
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    Not a fan of how easily they won the tag titles. I do like that Rollins specifically told Jordan that he isn't fit to lace Dean Ambrose boots up. The only problem is that once they were in the ring this supposed rookie paring were suddenly able to best the team that had beaten down Dean & Seth so often. In my mind they should have lost in a spirited showing, Seth says he really was impressed by Jordan and then they go out, work better as a team and get the win. Not only do you get two weeks of TV you get a little arc showing these guys gelling as a team.

  39. #39
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    The Bar had to drop the titles. Sheamus is hurt, and needs time off.

  40. #40
    Samuel Plan
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    There's something about Jordan being partnered with Rollins that's really getting under my skin. It irritates the hell out of me. But then I'm thinking that's probably the point of Jordan's character, especially considering the way Reigns and Rollins have been playing off of him.

    I also like the fact that it's a small story driven emotionally, at least for me; Rollins excels at emotionally driven storytelling of an old school manner - one of many reasons he's my FOAT. It still doesn't make it easy to watch, though. Especially after the emotion involved in Seth and Dean reuniting. I don't want to see that blown apart by Jason bloody Jordan, damn it!!!
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