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Thread: WWE General Discussion Thread

  1. #5961
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    Yeah I wish they did more with them although it seems they enjoy working there (maybe not their booking but they seem to be having fun all of the time). They can at least get paid well elsewhere.

  2. #5962
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    It would be interesting if they went back to New Japan, giving Karl's seniority in the BC and the possible splinter that stable might be looking at in the near future.

  3. #5963
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    I don't know if this warrants a new thread, but am I right in thinking that there's no RAW-exclusive PPV scheduled between TLC back in October and, presumably, whatever comes in between the Royal Rumble and Wrestlemania?

    I'm not completely against that but it's interesting, because it wasn't that long ago that some people were saying how great it was that you were basically getting two PPVs a month from the brand split and for the supposed top brand to then go a quarter without one.... it intrigues me, I guess.

  4. #5964
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    I thought for sure they would have one the first week of December but they decided not to do that and then they usually get the post big ppv show before SD but SD got it this time with Clash of Champions.. You're not gonna do a Christmas Eve PPV or new years Eve so maybe they do one in early January.

    I prefer less PPVS to be honest. Since they put so much value in TV, longer tv build could benefit both the TV product and make your big shows bigger. in theory of course. in practice, i've seen them spin their wheels and not make good use of the time....

    But if i was booking we'd have the 4 big shows, then 4 single brand shows each... and hell, i'd add money in the Bank as a fifth interbranded show but i would have the MITB match be interbranded so that you created interest in more guys getting the case. You don't need two guys carrying a case but imagine a Raw guy getting the case and not only getting props from his GM but he could also switch shows... ala like winning the Rumble.

    Having it be a single branded show means Raw or SD has to do something different during those weeks.
    Last edited by Lazyking; 11-10-2017 at 11:44 AM.

  5. #5965
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    I don't disagree. I'd probably do 6 PPV style (KOTR back in, though I would nuke MITB) and then do 6 IYH/roadblock style events that were notably smaller.

  6. #5966
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    I'd do less PPVs and more special events on the Network, even though they are basically the same thing. WWE were doing special Network events like Elimination Chamber and that Japan show in a few months span and then it just stopped.

  7. #5967
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    I really have to agree. With the Network, the monthly PPV model has to change. It's not like before where if you cut a PPV, talent will lose that PPV money. Which was part of the problem with the original brand split at first, only brand exclusive PPV's meant talent wasn't getting a PPV check every other month. With the Network though, you can so more special events and less PPV.

    I'd honestly go 6 "PPV's" and then 6 Network Specials. Like the upcoming Starcade which would be a great December tradition in the future (I know the original was in November, but WCW had it in December) or an October Halloween Havoc. I also wondered if they should do a once a month Prime Time wrestling type show, where they take matches from different house shows and then show them as two studio host talk. If they do it once a month, it might keep it fresh and allow the house shows to feel part of the show again.

  8. #5968
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    Ellsworth is gone. I thought he was hitting his stride as a male manager during the MITB stuff.

    The guy turned a squash and quick pre-match interview into a memorable moment though and eventually got himself a job in a place he had no business being in. They really should make a movie about him.

  9. #5969
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    Well some will be happy about that, specifically the people who were having conniption fits when he was involved with AJ during his title reign. I always see value in a guy like Ellsworth and I'm a little surprised he was released. He'll probably be able to make quite a bit more on the indys now, so good for him for hustling and making way more of an opportunity than most are able to.

  10. #5970
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    Man, he'll do good on the indies while he's still a novelty. He's tailor made for comedy spots on indy shows. It wouldn't surprise me to see him pop up in a couple major indies over the next few months for a laugh.

  11. #5971
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    Exactly, he's not about to win BOLA or anything but he'll get smaller bookings for quite a while based on the run he had.

    Reminds me a bit of Colin Delaney. Though I like Colin better as an actual wrestler, they had similar runs and Colin was able to parlay his WWE experience into additional bookings, so no reason Ellsworth can't do the same. Fun Colin fact, he still works extensively in the mid west and the New York area.

  12. #5972
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    He's from the Rochester, N.Y. area (just like Harper) and one time during Delaney's ECW run I saw him walking out of the bank as I was walking in. I go "Colin Delaney?" And chatted with him for a minute or two.

  13. #5973
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    That is awesome! I love random wrestler encounters. Was in line at the airport with Tozawa and Tyler Breeze recently. It was like 5am so I didn't bother them but still, was cool to see.

  14. #5974
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    I was thinking about this the other day, what do you think Ellsworth's base salary was for one year? I guessed $80,000 without having any knowledge whatsoever.

  15. #5975
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    Darren Young was on 200K so I’d say there, or even 50 or so higher.

  16. #5976
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    I watched the live feed of the Network for the first time in a long time last night. I happened to be home sitting around while 205 Live was on.

    That fucking Network live stream is damn near unwatchable. 205 ended and there was supposed to be an episode of Table for 3 up next that I was halfassed interested in watching so I stayed tuned in...through what must have been 25 minutes of commercials. Holy fuck! What is that? Unreal.

    First off, I already subscribe to the Network. I don't need to see three WWE Network promotional ads ON the Network.

    Seriously, I think I'll stick to PPV/live Wrestling content with a set start and end time, and on demand. I can't handle the way that live stream is run.

  17. #5977
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    Apparently Jim Johnston was released....

  18. #5978
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    Man, after 30 some years of phenomenal work, you'd think he'd have a job for life, or at least until he wanted to retire (unless that's what this is?).

  19. #5979
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    Man, after 30 some years of phenomenal work, you'd think he'd have a job for life, or at least until he wanted to retire (unless that's what this is?).
    That goes against the ethos of western American capitalism though. You discard used employees once they've served their purpose, there is such thing as 'loyalty'. Japan had a different long-term 'employee for life' model, but that has also been slowly disintegrating. In the old territory days, people like the Crocketts were famous for rewarding loyal employees well past their expiry dates, but that was another era.

  20. #5980
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    Unfortunately for Johnston, CFO$ overtook him. That's the reality of working life, especially in a creative field.

    He created so many iconic themes over the last 30 years, but every single one that people rave about today are CFO$ and the ones that people call bland and generic (Baron Corbin, for example) are Johnston.

    He was outperformed, and I think that maybe this generation of themes had moved past him.

    The one thing that I learned reading a career retrospective of his was just how hands on he was with outside bands. I always assumed that outside bands were asked to write a theme song and that was that, but apparently he worked very closely and was very hands on in the writing, performing and producing process with Rev Theory, Killswitch Engage and even Motorhead on Triple H and Evolutions songs. That's the type of cache that decades of experience gives you, though.

  21. #5981
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    The thing with Johnston, and what I always liked about him, is how he talks about developing music. His making of for The Undertaker's theme is excellent:



    I'm not sure CFO$ could create something as memorable as that, or say 'Ode To Freud' or 'Schizophrenic'.

  22. #5982
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    You'd think they'd keep him on a consultant at least. I mean the dude is almost 60 after all, and Coach is right (to a point) that he's been passed up in the game, so I get why you don't have to keep him on the full time payroll, but it's hard to believe he can't add any value after all these decades.

  23. #5983
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    Johnston's release showed exactly what Dusty Rhodes was talking about in the Hard Times promo. "And hard times are when a man has worked at a job for thirty years, thirty years, and they give him a watch, kick him in the butt and say “hey a computer took your place, daddy”, that’s hard times!" Johnston worked 30+ years for the WWF/E. In his prime, he made the soundtrack for all of our childhood. The Ultimate Warrior, Jake Roberts, the Undertaker, Shawn Michaels, Bret Hart, Steve Austin, working with Chris Warren for the DX themes, Brock Lesnar, working with other bands later for Orton, Edge, all the way now to Corbin. I do think CFO$ has passed him by. Nakamora, Roode, AJ Styles, Finn Bálor, Enzo; those all are AMAZING and the crowd interaction with Roode, Nakamora and Balor is something that Johnston had in his prime. So I understand the move, but do wish they'd fine Johnston a cushy corporate job in Titan Towers where he could still be connected to the company and not feel like they just dumped him. Oh well, that's corporate America I guess.

  24. #5984
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oliver View Post
    The thing with Johnston, and what I always liked about him, is how he talks about developing music. His making of for The Undertaker's theme is excellent:



    I'm not sure CFO$ could create something as memorable as that, or say 'Ode To Freud' or 'Schizophrenic'.
    The thing that stands out to me there is talking about his music being the background to a wrestler's natural charisma. I feel like CFO$ might be a little bit of a different approach where they try to accentuate a wrestler's charisma, or maybe make that song stand out.

    We've seen a lot of times in recent years, guys' music getting more over than the wrestler that's coming out. You never had that with Johnston themes. They definitely always fit, they are almost always good songs that you'd be willing to listen to outside of a wrestling context, and they never overshadowed the wrestler.

    Sometimes the CFO$ songs overshadow the wrestler.

    Listening to Johnston delve a little more into his process in the video when he talks about Randy Orton's theme is incredible. He cares and is a true artist. The fact that he thinks so hard about the guy's character and how the music would fit that character and what the character would be thinking really stands in start contrast to the average indy show where some skinny dude comes to the ring to a generic Disturbed song.

  25. #5985
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    Amusingly, Kevin Dunn with his all-over-the-place camera angles and shooting still has an incredibly cushy job within the WWE, and labours under the delusion that one day at last he will finally be recognized with an Emmy for his genius work. You would think in addition to dumping Dunn, they would also dump Dunn.

  26. #5986
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    I think Dunn gets to stick around because he does switch it up. I mean, Johnston's music was starting to sound the same, but Dunn has switched it up. Now to be fair, I like Johnston's music WAY more than Dunn's camera work, which makes Raw unwatchable at times. But I can see where WWE thinks they should keep Dunn and on Johnston.

  27. #5987
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    Pretty sure Dunn gets to stay because Vince is extremely loyal to him due to some incident (Dunn has supposedly got a job for life or something), and Dunn is one of the few people who knows how to maintain a relationship with Vince over a long period without burnout or drama. Aside from that, it's been said by former writers that HHH and Stephanie despise Dunn, and that as soon as Vince kicks the bucket, Dunn is getting pushed out.

  28. #5988
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    I heard that it was his dad who saved a huge amount of early WWE tapes from a fire. But that could just be an internets story, I guess.
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  29. #5989
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    I heard that it was his dad who saved a huge amount of early WWE tapes from a fire. But that could just be an internets story, I guess.
    That's the story that Jim Cornette has told. But I don't know if he was being facetious or serious.

  30. #5990
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allystare View Post
    Pretty sure Dunn gets to stay because Vince is extremely loyal to him due to some incident (Dunn has supposedly got a job for life or something), and Dunn is one of the few people who knows how to maintain a relationship with Vince over a long period without burnout or drama. Aside from that, it's been said by former writers that HHH and Stephanie despise Dunn, and that as soon as Vince kicks the bucket, Dunn is getting pushed out.
    The part of me that likes the online rumor mill looks forward to that. Mainly because it's been said that for the past few years both Triple H/Steph and Dunn have been building their loyal factions in the company.

    Triple H has been getting his guys like Road Dogg and his brother, Adam Pearce who he first brought in to NXT and guys like Tyson Kidd into high level creative and producer roles. Meanwhile, Dunn has guys like Ace, some of the Hollywood writers and some of the longer term producers/agents behind him.

    It'll be a fun and interesting fight when Vince steps aside. I would expect to see a lot of long time "Dunn guys", may of whom are probably legends themselves who have been with the company for years, pushed out or leave with him.

  31. #5991
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    Good riddance. Dunn's camera cuts the last few years have been atrocious. He used to not be this bad.

  32. #5992
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    The damn zoom in zoom out when repeated punches or kicks made me nauseous.

  33. #5993
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    In watching through the 80s boom period, there's a very noticeable improvement in production when Dunn gets hired. If Vince sees him as part of the reason the company rose to power in the first place (and frankly, maybe he should) that could account for some of the loyalty. He's also listed as a minority owner of the company, so there's that.

    I think he's become a kind of scapegoat for certain things, but I also really dislike WWE camera work so when he's finally pushed out I won't cry about it.

  34. #5994
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    Yeah I hate some of the more recent stuff. It's too busy for one thing, and can make matches seem smaller than they are.
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  35. #5995
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    The part of me that likes the online rumor mill looks forward to that. Mainly because it's been said that for the past few years both Triple H/Steph and Dunn have been building their loyal factions in the company.

    Triple H has been getting his guys like Road Dogg and his brother, Adam Pearce who he first brought in to NXT and guys like Tyson Kidd into high level creative and producer roles. Meanwhile, Dunn has guys like Ace, some of the Hollywood writers and some of the longer term producers/agents behind him.

    It'll be a fun and interesting fight when Vince steps aside. I would expect to see a lot of long time "Dunn guys", may of whom are probably legends themselves who have been with the company for years, pushed out or leave with him.
    Stephanie has already gotten rid of a lot of Vince's people, such as Bruce Prichard. One of the corporate females that Stephanie pushed as part of her feminist campaign was the one that convinced Vince to fire Ross back in 2013. And people like Pat Patterson (who was probably more of Vince's #2 than anyone) is retired/semi-retired, isn't he? Dusty was another one. I don't think there's many of Vince's old people left, it's mostly just the writing staff, and Dunn's people who are confined to the area of production.

    The real fight, if it happens - and I have my doubts because HHH/Stephanie are so ascendant - will be between Shane and HHH/Stephanie, since they have some sort of weird non-relationship ever since Vince chose HHH and Stephanie as the heirs over Shane, which is why he quit WWE in the first place. I remember even Bret Hart mentioned how awkward it was when he was at WWE last year and the weird tension between Stephanie and Shane.

  36. #5996
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    Does anyone else think that if WWE passes to Steph and Triple H that it will be sold before it reaches the kids? There's been hints with even Vince that he would sell to right person/company. Who knows if Steph's girls would want anything to do with it. I don't know i just feel like WWE might reach a point where its too big for the family.

  37. #5997
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    I do not think that Steph and HHH want to sell. I honestly believe that HHH wants to have complete control so he can make the WWE more similar to NXT. He wants to make the WWE good again. You can practically hear HHH's ideas get crushed by Vince.

    Now, in 30 years from now when HHH is almost 80 and Steph is 70, that may be a different story.

  38. #5998
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    Hard to imagine HHH or Stephanie selling. WWE is their only claim to celebrity and fame, what would they even do if they sold it? It's not like they have any transferable skills, and I don't see them as folks who would just sit back and relax. I also don't think there's much danger of the company growing too big for them, they're doing well but not that well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allystare View Post
    And people like Pat Patterson (who was probably more of Vince's #2 than anyone) is retired/semi-retired, isn't he?
    Pat's been 99% retired for more than a decade, I believe, but yeah back in the day he handled a tremendous amount of stuff for Vince, including a lot of actual booking and producing. I've heard he got the task of walking Ultimate Warrior through his top matches and laying them out super carefully so that they would come off right, among many other things.

  39. #5999
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    Pretty sure he was responsible for agenting pretty much every big WWE match for about twenty years too.
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  40. #6000
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    I do not think that Steph and HHH want to sell. I honestly believe that HHH wants to have complete control so he can make the WWE more similar to NXT. He wants to make the WWE good again. You can practically hear HHH's ideas get crushed by Vince.

    Now, in 30 years from now when HHH is almost 80 and Steph is 70, that may be a different story.
    I do think that HHH would be a noticeable improvement over Vince, and that HHH does good understanding and mind for the business. However, I think that this idea is vastly overstated, he would not be *that* great. In many ways (not for the best), his thinking mirrors Vince's, and he has many of the same blinkers that Vince does and has been complicit in many mistakes. He has the same obsession with body-builders. Some writer once said (Alex Greenfield, I think) that HHH has an uncanny and off-putting ability where you can put all the greatest stars of the last 30-40 years in front of him, and somehow he will find a way to fault them, 'they can't do this or that, they won't get over because of this or that...' He thought in 2006 (just like Vince) that Rey Mysterio was just a 'good hand' and wouldn't be much of a main-eventer. Rey Mysterio turned out to be one of the biggest merchandise sellers of that time, probably one of the biggest ratings draws of the last 15 years (especially among Latinos and kids). He is alleged to have thought near Rumble 2014 that Bryan was 'merely a good hand' and wasn't really a 'real' main eventer, even though by that time he was the most over guy on the roster. And he backed that ill-fated Batista/Orton match as well. He was also a 110% supporter of the Reigns push and thought alongside Vince that he should be #1. And then there is the Punk stuff, which he rather than Vince, single-handedly almost killed in 2011. He has a tendency to think too highly of his own work and drawing power, and this leads to all sorts of undesirable over-pushing of himself. This is pure speculation, but I think he was the one that arranged that Survivor Series match that way, and not Vince (Vince has never treated Cena that way). He also has a burning inferiority complex that manifests itself in harmful ways.

    So yes, I think the WWE will be unquestionably better off once HHH takes over, but he does have his blind spots.

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