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Thread: The Osprey vs Ricochet Match

  1. #1
    Queen of Extreme Irishsara's Avatar
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    The Osprey vs Ricochet Match

    Ricochet vs Will Ospreay From NJPW Best of the Super Juniors night 6 has seemed to have cause some controversy.

    I wanted to open a thread to get into it, but also to really get into how awesome that this is a thing.

    Before I dive into it, I just want to talk about how amazing it is that we are seeing these matches at all. About 15 years ago (god, I cant believe I can even write that) I got really into Zero1 Pro Wrestling. It had a lot of American talent. Former Steve Corino was Zero1's Heel Ace and . My brother was an avid tape trader and this fed was my entry drug into Japanese wrestling. There was about a year there where I watched more Japanese Wrestling than American wrestling after ECW folded. I was always between 6-10 months behind, if we were lucky, I was subjected to DVDs of edited matches, fucked up audio tracks, mailing money to people on E-Bay for burned DVD collections (which occasionally would have at least one DVD with an error). There are times I get stupid and nostalgic about it. Then I log into New Japan World and realize that my life is awesome. I can watch all the major shows live, with english commentary (WITH STEVE CORINO on English Commentary) I can log into Dailymotion and watch All Japan (ew) Wrestle1 (ew) NOAH hours after it airs in Japan. And then after I watch it, I can go on a blog, or read twitter, and talk about Japanese Wrestling. This is the golden age of wrestling.

    Ok onto the controversy.

    Vader saw a Gif of a match between

    He then tweeted this

    Blantant acrobatics,no story,is there anything done in this video that relates to winning u could get 2 high school gymnast and put ona show
    — Big Van Vader (@itsvadertime) May 29, 2016

    I understand how wrestling evolves beendoing for forty yrs around the worldtitles i europe japan mexico usa dumb ass https://t.co/KO5O2MTsv9
    — Big Van Vader (@itsvadertime) May 28, 2016

    Ricochet then responded with this



    So I assumed all of you own New Japan World because it is awesome. So everyone log in and watch BOSJ Night Six

    Oh wait ... you dont have New Japan World ... Well get it ... I'll Wait

    Oh you refuse, Well I believe you should watch the whole show. But NJPW was nice enough to post the whole match.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TgbxaQcheQ

    What do you guys think about this match?

    And to a greater level, what do you think about the Japanese product and it's evolution (and perhaps the potential for it's effect on the industry) ?

  2. #2
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    Match was fine. The Evolve one was better. Vader is a cunt for judging an entire match on 10 seconds. Those are my thoughts on that. Osprey stealing Vaders catch phrase and the Vader Bomb after Vader talked shit is also top notch. Fuck these old ass grumpy men.

  3. #3
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    I thought the match was good, but it wasnt match of the year. I think people went nuts over a Gif because of Twitter, and they hadnt seen the match. This is probably the thing i hate most about the IWC today. Is a 15 second spot becomes the match. Its gross.

    If I am being honest, I didnt think it was the best match of the tournament. Those honors go to either KUSHIDA vs O’Reilly from Night 1 or Sydal vs O’Reilly from Night 7.

    Sydal and Kyle O’Reilly have really impressed me during this tournament (as well as Taguchi actually). I think Kyle O’Reilly should be a bit of a blueprint for the rebuild of Cody Rhodes. His style has worked so well in Japan. I also think Cody Rhodes is perfect for the Devitt Role in NJPW. He could use some time as the Bull of The Woods in a division where is size doesnt hold him back and his style can evolve a bit.

  4. #4
    I'm not surprised this conversation has popped up; I'm incredibly surprised this is the match that pushed Vader's buttons. It was really good, but there's at least five matches this year I can think of that a) featured more high flying than this one and b) were better. The only thing I can conclude is that Vader (who I agree is a moron for judging a match off of clips) either needs to watch a lot more wrestling or was really ticked off buy those synchronized flips Puma and Ospreay did at the beginning.

    Sara, how has Volador been in this tournament thus far? I need to catch up on it and as a CMLL fan I'm really looking forward to seeing what he can do against a bunch of these guys.


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    Sara, how has Volador been in this tournament thus far? I need to catch up on it and as a CMLL fan I'm really looking forward to seeing what he can do against a bunch of these guys.
    Volador has not covered himself in glory but he can work to a lot of guy's styles. He is so quick tho that I keep getting surprised. He had a really solid match with Liger. I liked his match with Bobby Fish tonight but nothing to like stop the world over.

    The guys I would check out though are O'Rilley, Sydal, Romero and David Finlay. Look Fit's son is only in this tournament because The Bucks pulled out but he is really showing the kind of potential that should make the WWE take a really hard look at him in the years to come. He didnt win a single match last year's tournament and hes not looking very good in this one, but in defeat he is showing some major skills that should win some hearts. He has won mine. He has had some really surprising matches with Gedo, Romero and KUSHIDA. Don't sleep on the kid.

    Does anyone else think that companies being more restrictive of letting their matches out on youtube will create a culture of “GIF-worthy” spots which in turn will make wrestling even more spot monkey based?
    Last edited by Irishsara; 06-03-2016 at 02:59 AM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Irishsara View Post
    Volador has not covered himself in glory but he can work to a lot of guy's styles. He is so quick tho that I keep getting surprised. He had a really solid match with Liger. I liked his match with Bobby Fish tonight but nothing to like stop the world over.

    The guys I would check out though are O'Rilley, Sydal, Romero and David Finlay. Look Fit's son is only in this tournament because The Bucks pulled out but he is really showing the kind of potential that should make the WWE take a really hard look at him in the years to come. He didnt win a single match last year's tournament and hes not looking very good in this one, but in defeat he is showing some major skills that should win some hearts. He has won mine. He has had some really surprising matches with Gedo, Romero and KUSHIDA. Don't sleep on the kid.

    Does anyone else think that companies being more restrictive of letting their matches out on youtube will create a culture of “GIF-worthy” spots which in turn will make wrestling even more spot monkey based?
    I intend to check out as much as I can so I'll see those guys. But Volador is my guy; he's related to one of my favorite wrestlers ever, I really enjoy him on CMLL and he's just so exciting to watch because of that speed. He might be the fastest wrestler I've ever seen. So naturally I'm interested in seeing how he does.

    And I would be stunned if this made wrestling more spot based, mainly because it already is so spot based. Even WWE these days has become more spot based with the influx of all the big indie names coming in, it's just toned down compared to the the ROH's, New Japan's (who isn't an indy obviously), LU's, AAA's, CMLL's and PWG's of the world. So this will have no effect. Frankly I'm surprised it's had this much. Like I said before the match was really good, but I can name several LU and CMLL matches that featured more "flippy shit" and were of higher quality than this match. And that's just from lucha; I'm pretty sure you Sara could name a few Japanese matches that were crazier and of higher quality than this one.


  7. #7
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    I partly get where Vader is coming from. I honestly don't mind any level of flippy-doo as long as it is contextualized, but I believe he also made a point that sometimes guys don't even seem to be going for the win, and that is something that can rankle me personally. For example, from the infamous gif, I didn't mind at all the fast paced exchange but then they are doing handspring flips simply for the purpose of posing at each other. I know it's essentially the Dean/Eddie spot to the nth degree but I can understand how the execution might bother someone.

    That said, bottom line Vader is too grumpy but I still love him, and I still really liked the match for the most part.

  8. #8
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    The match itself wasnt flip flip ridiculous. I mean sure, they werent going for pins a lot of the time but most of it is counters. It is like the old ECW chain wrestling. No one is selling because no one is landing anything. You see more noselling in a traditional NJPW heavyweight match. When I watched it, before all the controversy (because I watch most of the stuff off NJPW World), there was only one spot that gave me indy douche chills. They do a Death Valley Driver on the apron and then COMPLETELY nosell it. That spot could have been sold as a crippling move. A guy just got his neck slammed on the apron and he gets right up and performs a headscissors. No fighting spirit spot. No struggle, no pain, no sell. He just gets up and performs the head scissors. Brutal. they were running out of time and wanted to hit their spots. That isnt a style thing, that is a wrestling thing.


    What blows my mind about how this went viral. This, a match from a Japanese House Show which NJPW didnt even show the whole show. Not from one of their big arenas. Not with English commentary. Not even with Japaense commentary. Just wrestling. Its cool.

  9. #9
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    I don't like the match. At all. I can appreciate why someone would, but I don't.

    I am impressed by what they did physically, but it me it looks like a dance number and not a wrestling match. The synchronized flipping, the high spots instantly bounced back from -- it looked like a Cirque du Soleil show rather than wrestling.

    It was put to me really well this weekend: it got over in front of a certain audience, but a card full of it or a mainstream audience and you'll lose the crowd. I watched a match this weekend that was also a choreographed spot show and it went spot-pop-silence-spot-pop-silence-spot-pop-silence-"this is awesome"-silence, and the match right after featured two really talented workers working and involving the crowd and had people making noise the entire time.

    There's a spot for everything in wrestling. There's a spot for this kind of work (although, I am of the opinion that this particular match takes the choreography a little too far) on a card, but a card full of it will wind up with people shrugging their shoulders and sitting on their hands after match three. There's a spot for plodding hoss matches, but a card full of those is going to have people yawning after the fifth shoulder tackle no sell. There's a place for hardcore, but the 90s proved that you have to up the ante if you're doing a card of it or people stop caring.

    That's the beauty of pro wrestling. I can go out and work my brawling-technical style and not even look at the top rope. The next dudes can come out and flip and fly everywhere. The next guys can have a hardcore plunder match. We can have a giant and a midget and a masked superhero and a locker room full of muscled up circus freaks and it leaves people wanting more of whatever the hell they just saw every time. Wrestling is the greatest form of entertainment for that reason.

    This match, I'm not high on but I see the value and I'd certainly book it.

    For the record, though: I didn't show it to Leo Burke this weekend because I didn't want him to have a stroke.

    EDIT: I think the reason that I don't like it is that I like my wrestling to look "real", and that match looks about as far from "real" as possible.

    For example: this past weekend when I was watching one of the matches from the back, all I could think was "those punches look fake". When something as little as the punches look fake, everything falls apart and looks fake. When your match looks fake, then the crowd subconsciously thinks to themselves that every prior match, including the one that I had with a talented veteran where we worked to make our holds look snug and "shoot", our calls unnoticeable and our strikes look real, is fake.

    I get that it's fake. I get that everyone knows that it's fake. But the job of a pro wrestler should, in theory, be to make people forget that. To make people wonder "jeez, that guy actually punched that other guy...is this real?" I train very hard, several times per week, to make sure that my holds look snug and "shoot", calls are unnoticeable and strikes look real. So to me, it makes me a little upset and feel like all of this effort was for not when I watch a match from the curtain and say to myself "that shit looks fake."

    I see where Vader is coming from. He's worked hard for decades to make his shit look REAL. I get how it could make him hot that watching that match he says "that shit looks fake".
    Last edited by Team Farrell; 06-07-2016 at 05:01 PM.

  10. #10
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    But TF, part of this is that it is The Best of the Super Juniors. This isnt the G1, this isnt even the majority of the usual New Japan shows. It has a certain flavor because it is supposed to. Most of the comedy stuff we have seen from NJPW recently has been stripped out (Hell Taguchi even looked legit with his Ass based offense). But even guys like Bobby Fish and Liger were doing MUCH more FlipFlip than we normally see from their New Japan stuff. Its sort of like going to Meet The Parents and expecting Robert DeNiro from Raging Bull.

    Anyone chasing this stuff down, I LOVED O’Reilly vs. Romero from Night 13 and Kushida vs Sydal from Night 11. Oh and Volador Jr vs Ricochet from Night 12 is going to make Cult's Week.

    Oh and Watch the Final. Always watch the Final. The boys give it their all.

    I will tell you, having seen every night of this tournament, I love Dave Finlay, Jay White and Kyle O’Reilly. Im bought.

  11. #11
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    Yeah, I get that. It's still not for me. I like a good cruiser match, but that takes it a step farther than I'm in to.

    Vader wasn't incorrect in his comments. You could grab two gymnasts with no wrestling, teach them to bump for a few weeks and have them put this on. Osprey's chain would be lost, and some of the more technical stuff wouldn't be included, but that's not why this match is getting any attention. The more outrageous stuff, though? Any gymnast that could bump could do that.

    There's a bigger discussion to be had, though. Is this truly "the evolution" of wrestling? And if so, if that a good thing for the sport? I would venture a guess that no, it's not and no, it wouldn't be. But some would argue the opposite.

    I do think that Ricochet is the total package and could be a gigantic star in the WWE system. The guy can do anything in the ring (I wonder how his body would fair off an indy schedule and on the four+ day schedule of WWE), he's got a stellar look, he's a handsome dude and I don't think that being under 200-lbs hurts him that much, since I think his muscle mass would have him looking larger than Zayn.

    He's doing great things from what I hear in Lucha Underground, but he deserves to have millions of eyeballs on him.

  12. #12
    I think the reaction to this match just goes to show how some people are just too set in how they think wrestling should be. We've seen all those comments (like Coach just brought up) about how it's more gymnastics than wrestling, how it looks too choreographed, how it lacks psychology/storytelling, the list goes on. And the more I think about it the more I just think we've reached the point where people are looking too deeply into it, especially in regards to psychology/storytelling, aspects of wrestling that I feel almost 90% of fans (and even some wrestlers) don't truly understand and just throw the terms around to sound like they know what they're talking about. In reality, the ultimate psychological aspect of every match, the one storytelling device you'll always have is two men looking to win. Everyone always wants to look for something deeper and obviously a match having something deeper doesn't hurt, but always the match ultimately comes down to two guys doing what they can to win. The two best matches I've ever seen (CM Punk vs. John Cena from MITB 2011 and Atlantis vs. Villano III, mask vs. mask from the Juicio Final 2000) both featured bigger things at work that helped, but what ultimately put those matches over the top was that both matches came down to guys needing to win. Punk needed to win to prove he was the best; Cena needed to win for the company; Atlantis and Villano had to win to keep their masks, the symbol of lucha libre. Even with all the other factors going on, the goal of victory was the most important story.

    And that's the case here with Ricochet-Ospreay and a number of other cruiserweight/spot matches that have been dismissed over the years. At the end of the day Ricochet-Ospreay is a bout two guys who want to win and everything they do is for that specific purpose; the aerial offense is simply the best way both can win while the "choreographed gymnastics" routine is both men trying to psyche the other out with their athleticism to gain a psychological edge much like Eddie and Dean tried to psyche each other out with their sequence back in ECW (and much like then, neither guy can gain that advantage, leading to a stalemate while subtly informing the crowd this will be even). I'm no genius but doesn't that sound like a match with a solid foundation that should be good? So the problem isn't the match, the problem is the same one that's been around since old timers were crying about Flair-Steamboat, the Super Juniors in New Japan, the WCW cruiserweights and the rise of ROH; that these matches are just amazing spots that serve no purpose and tell no story. The reality is that every match already has the built in story that each wrestling is trying to win. With the rarest exception that's the ultimate point of every wrestling match; you're trying to win a match to put yourself in better position on the card. Sure sometimes there's more stuff to it but the goal is always to win, and for some wrestlers the best ay to do that is to fly around, do crazy spots and showcase athleticism even if it seems out of place. I guarantee you if we looked at it through that lense instead of the rigid close minded way a lot of people do now a thousand matches would be looked at differently.

    By the way, RICOCHET VS. VOLADOR?! Thank you for bringing that to my attention Sara; I got to catch Volador-Ospreay yesterday and was blown away by it. I can only imagine how awesome Ricochet vs. Volador is(which is basically Lucha Underground vs. CMLL, a dream for a lucha nut like myself). Also Coach, Ricochet at last word is going back to LU; they apparently got close enough to WWE's offer that he chose to stay. Really cool shit from him.


  13. #13
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    I think that people who can't see a story in the match are a little shortsighted or don't want to see one. The synchro gymnastics are a little much for me to buy, but for someone to say that there's no story is silly.

    There are little things that I, as a wrestler, see that make me want to tear my hair out. Tiny little things like just before the dual flip spot, Ricochet gave his arm to Osprey for the floatover headscissor. He's just holding it out for Osprey rather than attempting an offensive move that Osprey reverses. If one of my students did that, I'd give them shit -- I give them shit for throwing lines high when someone is supposed to duck.

    It's little things like that, that 98% of people watching aren't going to consciously pick up on, but makes it look fake. The best way it was explained to me, by a vet that I have the utmost respect for, is that things like that don't make you stop and call it shit but make the fan watching think that something is off. They don't necessarily know what, but something.

    No-selling the DVD onto the apron into the 6-1-9/reverse rana also makes me a little nuts because it's basically saying "nothing hurts, the hardest part of the ring doesn't hurt enough to make any difference."

    My biggest actual problem with the match is the imitators that it's going to lead to. Other than a few points, most of the spots were sold (Ricochet's sell of the dropkick to the guts is stellar). Ricochet also never forgot the crowd, giving them a look between spots to give them a second to absorb and keep them in to it.

    But now, seven thousand kids who aren't as good wrestlers as Osprey and Ricochet and are less experienced are going to try and copy this style. The choreographed spot match that I watched this weekend which I mentioned before had this issue. Two inexperienced kids who can can do some pretty cool stuff in the ring, but lost the crowd completely (there was no pop for their biggest spot) because they put their heads down and went spot-spot-spot-spot without taking a second to let the crowd absorb and look to them. When you don't look to them, you are subconsciously saying "you aren't involved in this match and don't matter", so people check their phones. A bunch of inexperienced kids are going to try and do this, think they're having 5* matches and without vets to tell them what they're doing wrong that Osprey and Ricochet were doing right, which many locker rooms don't have, they're going to see crowds not care, or worse, dwindle. All the flying in the world makes no difference if you're not engaging the crowd.

    That's what gets me. It's an objectively good match, I don't think that there's any way someone who isn't trying to be inflammatory could disagree. However, as someone who does this there are a dozen nitpicks that make it look "fake" and drive me nuts, and I immediately dread the impostors.

    However, since I want followers and you have to be inflammatory to get over these days, my official stance is...

    This is the single worst match of all time. It is single handedly killing the wrestling business. Ricochet and Osprey are scum and I hope that they're blackballed.

  14. #14
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    I think we are also missing something.

    Eddie Gurerro and Dean Malenko, for example, were friends, had already wrestled eachother repeatedly in Japan and the US and by the time we got to their TV title feud, had already built a pretty solid match.

    This match was thrown together on the bus from Iwate to Tokyo (like a six hour drive) as part of a tournament. The next time these 2 lock up for NJPW, it is going to be a big deal and I believe the match will be laid out better. Also, after a few years of selling this a little on the indies, these two could be Punk vs Joe or Eddie/Rey.

    Heck, it also makes you think what ECW would have been like if Heyman had Twitter.

  15. #15
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    I'm sorry, and I don't mean to sound like a dick, but if "length of time available to plan match" becomes something that's rated on, I might have finally outgrown watching wrestling.

    Six hours is a lifetime to plan a match. I get what you're saying, but if we're going to say "this was good for only six hours prep time", I think I'm too old for this shit.

    I'm sure that their next encounters will be event better. I'd personally like to see them stick it to some of the old school guys and keep the highspots to a minimum in their next match, maybe keep it mat based and technical and end on a submission. Then come back for round three and top this first one on the high flying.
    Last edited by Team Farrell; 06-09-2016 at 02:15 AM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    I'm sorry, and I don't mean to sound like a dick, but if "length of time available to plan match" becomes something that's rated on, I might have finally outgrown watching wrestling.

    Six hours is a lifetime to plan a match. I get what you're saying, but if we're going to say "this was good for only six hours prep time", I think I'm too old for this shit.

    I'm sure that their next encounters will be event better. I'd personally like to see them stick it to some of the old school guys and keep the highspots to a minimum in their next match, maybe keep it mat based and technical and end on a submission. Then come back for round three and top this first one on the high flying.
    Are you implying a wrestler puts the same amount of time into a house show in front of 600 people as they would in front of The Seibu dome? These guys were in the middle of the BOSJ.

    Sure, Osprey and Ricochet were main eventing Korakuen Hall in front of 1,500 people (Jim Cornette said it looked like a house show ... one of the top 5 most storied wrestling buildings in history ...) But the Best of the Super Juniors is still 12 shows in 15 days and Osprey was working with guys hes never worked with (for the most part) and hes booked to win the whole thing. I am not sure a match on Night 5 with one of the most talented jr's breathing, is going to get the same careful work that it would when Osprey was carrying (i mean working) a 56 yr old Tiger Mask the next night in Yonago in front of about the same number of people. I mean shit The night before Tokyo he was teaming with Tomohiro Ishii and YOSHI-HASHI. He seems a bit busy.

  17. #17
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    As a fan I dont care about Wrestling looking real. None of my friends that I know do either. We want more of the Lucha Va Voom / LU / CHIKARA / AAA type presentation. I think wrestling works best as a "Live Action Comic Book" more then it does as a "Legit Sport". For me anyway. If I wanted to see legit competition I would watch MMA or something else. I'm not a huge fan of this style of match but I think they made it work [As I said I think their EVOLVE match is better then this one]

    I'd much rather watch Rico or Osprey wrestle then a Kyle O'Reilly or a Bobby Fish. I watch their matches sometimes and wonder "Hey. Do these guys know MMA is a thing?" I like that they make it seem legit as possible as far as the matches go...but when they start putting people in submissions that MMA guys tap out of immediately it takes me out of the match. I can suspend belief for a bit. A guy still fighting after being in a RNC for 2 minutes? Nah. Fuck that trash.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irishsara View Post
    Are you implying a wrestler puts the same amount of time into a house show in front of 600 people as they would in front of The Seibu dome? These guys were in the middle of the BOSJ.

    Sure, Osprey and Ricochet were main eventing Korakuen Hall in front of 1,500 people (Jim Cornette said it looked like a house show ... one of the top 5 most storied wrestling buildings in history ...) But the Best of the Super Juniors is still 12 shows in 15 days and Osprey was working with guys hes never worked with (for the most part) and hes booked to win the whole thing. I am not sure a match on Night 5 with one of the most talented jr's breathing, is going to get the same careful work that it would when Osprey was carrying (i mean working) a 56 yr old Tiger Mask the next night in Yonago in front of about the same number of people. I mean shit The night before Tokyo he was teaming with Tomohiro Ishii and YOSHI-HASHI. He seems a bit busy.
    In a perfect world, yeah. But probably not.

    What I'm saying is tat if they had a six hour bus ride to put a match together and likely some time before doors are cracked to go over things, that's forever. Shit, if the person I'm working with tries to talk to me six hours before doors I laugh at them (how am I going to remember that stuff?). Realistically, they could have run through that match two or three times in its entirety.

    That's why I'm unimpressed with thrown together on a six hour bus ride. I'm more impressed with the extent of their conversation was "let's go out there and wrestle; here are my spots, what are yours let's go".

    Quote Originally Posted by KiLL CoLD View Post
    As a fan I dont care about Wrestling looking real. None of my friends that I know do either. We want more of the Lucha Va Voom / LU / CHIKARA / AAA type presentation. I think wrestling works best as a "Live Action Comic Book" more then it does as a "Legit Sport". For me anyway. If I wanted to see legit competition I would watch MMA or something else. I'm not a huge fan of this style of match but I think they made it work [As I said I think their EVOLVE match is better then this one]

    I'd much rather watch Rico or Osprey wrestle then a Kyle O'Reilly or a Bobby Fish. I watch their matches sometimes and wonder "Hey. Do these guys know MMA is a thing?" I like that they make it seem legit as possible as far as the matches go...but when they start putting people in submissions that MMA guys tap out of immediately it takes me out of the match. I can suspend belief for a bit. A guy still fighting after being in a RNC for 2 minutes? Nah. Fuck that trash.
    You are far, far from the type of person most wrestlers should be trying to draw. You're a hardcore fan of indy wrestling. You're a fan of the niche. The typical person, when they see Chikara-type shows (which I love!) think that it's silly kids shit and that's all pro wrestling is. They types of people that are going to be posting on forums, in general, and know who Will Osprey is by name shouldn't be the target market. It should be the person who says "I loved wrestling when I was a kid", or "my dad took me to wrestling in the 80s, maybe my kid would like it". We've got your ticket, we shouldn't cater to you.

    Guys like O'Reilly and Fish take it too far in the other direction. There's a sweet spot (and I struggle to come up with exactly who nails that spot). But a cross armbar is an immediate submission in MMA. People know that, so it should be the same in pro wrestling. 10 years ago, it wasn't but that's evolution. If I hold you in an armbar for a minute, you'd better be missing the next two months of shows and coming in your arm in the sling selling the dislocated elbow. If I put you in a good RNC (not a chinlock or sleeper, mind you) you've got maybe 15 seconds before you're out cold. Make it an even 30 for selling and drama purposes, but if they've got a choke in deep it should be over.

    Wrestling can be superheros and high flying and submissions and bodybuilders with super strength and it can all look real. The idea is that these people have trained to be better than the average person. I can take a few bumps and get back up, but when my manager (theoretically an "average person") gets bumped once he's out cold. There can be a realism in that.

    But little things, which I am sure would be fixed when/if Rico and Osprey work again, make it look fake. Being thrown down and kipping up, I've got absolutely no problem believing that Rico can do that, he controlled his landing and didn't actually take a bump (actually, him easily giving a big flip early on more than established he's capable of that). Holding your arm out like a dance partner for Osprey to hook looks fake. Again, it's little things that many people won't notice, but I nitpick these things. I nitpick the same things when I watch my own matches back (I hate 90% of my own matches when I watch them back); I nitpick the same things when I watch my students' matches or the guys that I've booked. That's how I watch wrestling these days, especially workrate focused products.

    Cult, maybe that's why I like WWE so much. It's so entertainment focused that I can sit back, shut off my mind and other than cringing at some bumps that I know sucked to take or rolling my eyes at a blown spot that should never have been tried, I can just enjoy watching wrestling for a few hours.

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