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Thread: 4th Year Anniversary of CM Punk's Infamous RAW Shoot Promo

  1. #1
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    4th Year Anniversary of CM Punk's Infamous RAW Shoot Promo

    June 27th, 2011
    10:58pm EST

    Today's the 4th anniversary of one CM Punk promo that led to the so-called Summer Of Punk. To me, it feels like a really, really long time ago, but is 40% of a decade really that long?

    Regardless, does anything Punk said in the past hold any meaning today?




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  2. #2
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    No. Fuck that quitter and loser.

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    Does anything Punk said in the past hold any meaning today? I think this does.

    " The reason I’m leaving is you people. Because after I’m gone, you’re still going to pour money into this company. I’m just a spoke on the wheel. The wheel is going to keep turning and I understand that. Vince McMahon is going to make money despite himself. He’s a millionaire who should be a billionaire. You know why he’s not a billionaire? Because he surrounds himself with glad-handed, nonsensical, douchebag asshole yes men, like John Laurinaitis, who’s going to tell him everything he wants to hear, and I’d like to think that maybe this company will better after Vince McMahon is dead. But the fact is, it’s going to be taken over by his idiotic daughter and his doofus son-in-law and the rest of his stupid family."

    This is true. This is 100% true. The flaws on raw remain because Vince doesnt want to make big changes to fine-tune his product because he knows what works. He is surrounded by gladhanding yes men wo are afraid to challenge him. They will continue telling Vince what he wants to hear. When Vince dies, Steph, who never had any other experience of wrestling outside her father's framework will continue the same half assed policies that lead to this stagnation bullshit in the first place. The wheel will just keep turning but until something big enough and global enough starts to eat into the WWE's Market Share, they wont give a shit. The WWE continues to grow, continues to monopolize the best talent and there will never be a legitimate competition.

    Maybe Vince's doofus son-in-law spent enough time under the Dusty Rhodes learning tree that it pushes him to make small changes elsewhere in the product. Perhaps the WWE Network can showcase wrestling that acts as a rival product which can insidiously change the product from within. Probably only after Vince is dead and Steph runs for public office.

    The only time Smackdown was truly successful was when Paul Heyman was challenging Steph and Vince on EVERY decision. When he was fighting over every promo, when he was dragging Cole and the boys in to rerecord commentary. What did they do? they got tied of Paul E. Court and The Bull of The Woods Dusty Rhodes fighting with them over booking and replaced them with glad-handed, nonsensical, douchebag asshole yes men. Is the Smackdown product better since they fired Dusty or Paul Heyman? You tell me.

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    The whole spoke on the wheel thing has never felt more true with the network and the wrestler's PPV pay being cut down.. Very few guys feel special and it makes the company all about the brand.. in some way that is good, less reliance on a top star and all that but I don't think making all your guys feel interchangable is a good thing. If no one is at the top, how can anyone rise?

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    Is shoot promo really the correct terminology here? I feel like the term shoot has evolved so much in the past few years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheAman View Post
    Is shoot promo really the correct terminology here? I feel like the term shoot has evolved so much in the past few years.
    If anything, this is one of the few real examples of a Worked shoot. A guy goes out there with a mic, with no script, and tells the truth. It isnt worked because no one told him to cut that promo. No one knew what he was going to say and he told what he actually thought. He was still in character but he said what he actually thought. I grew up in the ECW era of the "shoot" interview. Shane Douglas and Taz and the boys would call out guys in other wrestlers in other organizations. Paul E. would bury Vince or Bishoff for stuff going on. Steve Austin would talk about being fired by fax. I always kind of thought it was all a story. Then i come to find out Steve Austin really got fired by fax. Ric Flair really did use his stroke to hold down Shane Douglas (and really did have negotiations to go to the WWE and when he came back told the truth of what happened on TV). That kind of shit blew my mind as a kid. Sure it was smarky, and inside, and not all the promos were good (Shane was a much better promo early in his career before he became a blowhard) but they felt more real.

    The idea of a "Shoot tape" where wrestlers give interviews about what really happened developed from this promo style from ECW.

    Obviously the term shoot mean real. It comes from a carny term shortened from "straight shooting" where whatever is happening stops being a "work" or "Gimmicked" and becomes real. This can include a "shoot" Fight in wrestling where it is supposed to be a work and stops being one or a "shoot" promo.

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    I wish the board hadn't gotten destroyed & rebuilt, it would be cool to bring up the raw thread from that night.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irishsara View Post
    If anything, this is one of the few real examples of a Worked shoot. A guy goes out there with a mic, with no script, and tells the truth. It isnt worked because no one told him to cut that promo. No one knew what he was going to say and he told what he actually thought. He was still in character but he said what he actually thought. I grew up in the ECW era of the "shoot" interview. Shane Douglas and Taz and the boys would call out guys in other wrestlers in other organizations. Paul E. would bury Vince or Bishoff for stuff going on. Steve Austin would talk about being fired by fax. I always kind of thought it was all a story. Then i come to find out Steve Austin really got fired by fax. Ric Flair really did use his stroke to hold down Shane Douglas (and really did have negotiations to go to the WWE and when he came back told the truth of what happened on TV). That kind of shit blew my mind as a kid. Sure it was smarky, and inside, and not all the promos were good (Shane was a much better promo early in his career before he became a blowhard) but they felt more real.

    The idea of a "Shoot tape" where wrestlers give interviews about what really happened developed from this promo style from ECW.

    Obviously the term shoot mean real. It comes from a carny term shortened from "straight shooting" where whatever is happening stops being a "work" or "Gimmicked" and becomes real. This can include a "shoot" Fight in wrestling where it is supposed to be a work and stops being one or a "shoot" promo.
    I disagree that the Punk promo was worked in the way you describe. There's absolutely no way in hell that Vince and HHH didn't know the gist of what he was going to say. They might not have fed him a script, but I'm sure they knew the general outline of the promo. Vince is way too much of a control freak to let someone go out there on live television, particularly someone who was on the verge of leaving to have free reign on the mic. No way.

    ---

    Also with regards to Paul, you're probably already aware of this, but HHH, Vince, and Steph have a personal hatred of him (resulting no doubt from envy), so it doesn't matter how right he is or how great a particular idea he pitches to them might be, they're going to undercut him at every step.

    Former WWE writers Seth Mates and Andrew Goldstein covered that pretty well, and you might find it interesting if you haven't already seen it:

    The behind-the-scenes dynamic between WWE head Vince McMahon and Paul Heyman was amplified and presented on television this week when McMahon and Heyman had a backstage promo exchange during Monday's Raw. The exchange included the classic retort to anything Heyman says that he doesn't know the difference between lies and the truth, but also captured Heyman's ability to present ideas to McMahon. Whether McMahon uses the ideas is another story.

    During Friday's PWTorch Livecast, former WWE Creative writers Seth Mates and Andrew Goldstein both painted a picture of McMahon loathing Heyman, but also seeing him as good for business. McMahon did not want to use Heyman's idea to push C.M. Punk as the next big star in 2006, which contributed to Heyman leaving WWE, but he also recognized that Heyman would be good for business to associate with Punk in 2012.

    Mates and Goldstein, drawing from their time in the trenches in WWE, noted the dynamic between McMahon and Heyman extends to Stephanie McMahon and Triple H, who also cannot stand Heyman, but view him as useful as a TV character. Using his ideas is another story, which is one of several reasons why Heyman will likely never be a full-time member of the Creative team again.

    "The three of them cannot stand Paul Heyman," said former writer Andrew Goldstein, who was in WWE during Heyman's final days in 2006. "They sit around and they joke about Paul Heyman - about him sweating and his suits are cheap and he showed up in a rented, broken-down limo the first day he signed a contract to make himself look like a big deal, and they make fun of his ideas and they do imitations of him. But, I think all three of them are extremely jealous of his brain."

    Continuing the theme of behind-the-scenes pushed to in-front-of-the-cameras, Goldstein said he's sure there were shoot elements when Stephanie returned to TV in July and slapped Heyman across the face while Hunter stood in the ring. "I know how real that was - how much enjoyment Stephanie got from actually getting to do that," said Goldstein.

    In addition to Heyman's political style, Heyman's pattern of pitching new ideas seems to be one of the main points of contention between Heyman and the McMahons. Whereas McMahon sticks to what works and "gets every ounce out of it," as Mates said, Heyman is always looking for "the next big thing."

    Mates recalled how this came into play at Summerslam 2002 when WWE focused heavily on The Rock and Brock Lesnar in training videos to build toward the PPV.

    "I'll never forget," Mates said. "Paul said to Vince, 'Vince, those vignettes changed our business.' Paul understood that the next big boom in terms of competition was going to be legitimate fighting combat and how that comes together. Paul had touched on the UFC boom before it ever happened. We ran those vignettes up to Summerslam and they went over really well, and by the next month, we're back to wrestling storylines again. I'm not saying Vince should have fundamentally changed things. But, that's Paul's strength. Paul is that contrary voice screaming that the emperor is naked when everyone else knows that the secret to their own job stability is to pretend that the emperor's clothes are beautiful."

    Goldstein echoed Mates's story recalling the final blow-up between Heyman and the McMahons at the December to Dismember PPV in December 2005. "Paul was adamant," Goldstein said. "We have to have Punk go over the Big Show and put the ECW Title on this guy and let's ride him. And, Vince, whether it was a good idea (or not), because it came from Paul, he said, 'Oh no. Big Show. Big Show. Big Show. (Bobby) Lashley. I'm going to make this my own. Paul, shut up."

    What brought Heyman back to WWE was Brock Lesnar, and WWE realizing (too late) that Lesnar needed a mouthpiece. Now, Heyman is able to contribute ideas again, albeit not in a formal setting. Whether it works out in the long-term between the Heyman Camp, which also includes current WWE champion C.M. Punk, and the McMahon Trio remains to be seen.

    "Paul doesn't care what anybody thinks of him, but the three of them can't stand Paul," said Goldstein. "But, I will give Vince credit to this - he will do whatever is right for business."
    Last edited by Allystare; 07-06-2015 at 05:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allystare View Post
    Also with regards to Paul, you're probably already aware of this, but HHH, Vince, and Steph have a personal hatred of him (resulting no doubt from envy), so it doesn't matter how right he is or how great a particular idea he pitches to them might be, they're going to undercut him at every step.

    Former WWE writers Seth Mates and Andrew Goldstein covered that pretty well, and you might find it interesting if you haven't already seen it:
    I disagree with this a lot. Vince and Paul have a highly contentious relationship. But they do have a long relationship full of ups and downs. Vince and Paul E. have known eachother for over 30 years. Vince saved ECW twice and almost succeeded in getting them on National TV which would have saved him the 3rd time. Vince helped get Paul on PPV. Vince put him on the Raw creative team since 2001 and put him in charge of Smackdown a few years later. Vince didnt have to do that. He let Paul hire guys like Tommy Dreamer, Court Bauer and other stooges. Vince didnt have to do that. The problem with Paul E is the same problem he always had. Paul lies, pushes, fights, and never gives an inch. He will use talents to get his way. He will lead rebellions wthin Vince's own locker room. Vince and Paul wear on eachother. they have huge egos and they clash. If Steph or Vince hated Paul Heyman then they would keep him off TV. They wouldnt fly him to NXT to get his opinion on talents. Vince and Steph can carry a grudge but when they do, they dont bring a guy back. Paul had the respect a lot of people. One of those people is VKM. Another I think is HHH. I think Steph likes Paul Heyman but hats working with him. I think she respects him tho.

    Vince has given tons of people live mics (some people worse than Punk). He gave Paul Heyman one a couple of times live on Raw. I think Vince knew CM Punk was playing ball. I think CM Punk and Vince had an understanding. They were in negotiations for a new contract. Punk wasnt going to fuck with his money.

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    Ugh, I hate the term "worked shoot". It's such a garbage term than most in the business would laugh in your face for using.

    Stories stemming from real life activities and unscripted promos are great. They are arguably better than anything "booked" or pre-written promo. The Matt Hardy/Edge/Lita story, Punk's promo, Daniel Bryan's road to WrestleMania 30, etc. were awesome angles worked by professionals based on real-life circumstances. Punk cut an unscripted promo, but don't I doubt that Vince and Kevin Dunn knew that he was going to bury the company. They told him to go out and cut an unscripted promo venting his frustrations, knowing he's a professional and can work it and make an angle out of it.

    It was a work. Punk was leaving, they saw money in a great angle based on that and went with it. But had Punk not re-signed Cena would have just beaten yet another challenger while standing up for the company and Punk wouldn't have gotten to run off with the belt, end of angle.

    That term wreaks so much of 2000 WCW where they used insider terms and tried so hard to make things seem like a "shoot", that it just made the "shoot" stuff look like a low-brow work and drew more attention to the fact that the well-worked stuff was a work.

    It's either a work or it's a shoot. It can be a work based on something that's actually happening (Hardy/Lita/Edge). It can become a shoot based on something happening in that work (Chris and Nancy Benoit becoming an item). It can't be both.

    Sometimes real life writes a better story than any booker ever could.

    The last real "worked shoot" that I can think of in WWE is the Montreal Screwjob where they shot on Bret Hart and fucked him but carried on on television as though it had been a work (even though everyone knew it wasn't) and it was just another WWF angle.
    Last edited by Team Farrell; 07-06-2015 at 06:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    It's either a work or it's a shoot. It can be a work based on something that's actually happening (Hardy/Lita/Edge). It can become a shoot based on something happening in that work (Chris and Nancy Benoit becoming an item). It can't be both.
    I disagree (shocker), We dont know how much freedom Punk had. BUT yeah most of those worked shoots are worked. But there are examples of worked shoots. There are examples of Paul Heyman firing Sabu live on ECW. Paul knew Sabu was fired. Sabu had no idea he was being fired and for all intenseive purposes it was a shoot. Paul KNEW he was bringing back Sabu and was using it as part of a storyline. He worked it.

    There are examples of guys agreeing to shoot fight for the first 3 minutes of a match and then working the rest of the match. What would you call that? Its clearly a work but its clearly a shoot. My favorite worked shoot will always be Shinya Hashimoto vs Steve Corino. Steve Corino wanted to work everybody. The Sheets, the boys, the audience, everybody. Shinya Hashimoto by agreement started real life shooting on Steve Conrino causing a TKO finish and a title change. The NWA at the time was reporting their finishes to the sheets ahead of time. So by Hashimoto beating the fuck out of Steve Corino with clearly shoot kicks and punches in a planned real fight, they were able to work everybody. It was a worked shoot.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ll693uRLGpY

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    Quote Originally Posted by Irishsara View Post
    I disagree with this a lot. Vince and Paul have a highly contentious relationship. But they do have a long relationship full of ups and downs. Vince and Paul E. have known eachother for over 30 years. Vince saved ECW twice and almost succeeded in getting them on National TV which would have saved him the 3rd time. Vince helped get Paul on PPV. Vince put him on the Raw creative team since 2001 and put him in charge of Smackdown a few years later. Vince didnt have to do that. He let Paul hire guys like Tommy Dreamer, Court Bauer and other stooges. Vince didnt have to do that. The problem with Paul E is the same problem he always had. Paul lies, pushes, fights, and never gives an inch. He will use talents to get his way. He will lead rebellions wthin Vince's own locker room. Vince and Paul wear on eachother. they have huge egos and they clash. If Steph or Vince hated Paul Heyman then they would keep him off TV. They wouldnt fly him to NXT to get his opinion on talents. Vince and Steph can carry a grudge but when they do, they dont bring a guy back. Paul had the respect a lot of people. One of those people is VKM. Another I think is HHH. I think Steph likes Paul Heyman but hats working with him. I think she respects him tho.

    Vince has given tons of people live mics (some people worse than Punk). He gave Paul Heyman one a couple of times live on Raw. I think Vince knew CM Punk was playing ball. I think CM Punk and Vince had an understanding. They were in negotiations for a new contract. Punk wasnt going to fuck with his money.
    From everything various personalities in the business have said, I don't think there's a 'respect' there. In fact, they seem to keep Paul on a very tight leash in some ways. It was reported earlier this year on a podcast (it was either Court Bauer or Meltzer), that Vince and Steph don't actually like Paul coming to NXT or talking to the young guys. There's an interesting dynamic, because the younger wrestlers more or less like Paul because they were ECW fans growing up so they idolize him and think he's a genius, while Vince/Steph/Hunter think he was a business failure.

    Furthermore, it's well known that Vince actually loves working with people that hate him, the adversarial role (to an extent), and seeing them crawl back to him. Sort of like a power trip. That's one of the reasons why he reconciled with many of the people who jumped to WCW, and brought others in.

    It's more a case of, even if he hates you (whether you're Hart, Hogan, Sammartino, etc.), he'll reconcile with you if he thinks there's business to be done. They tolerate Paul, but from all accounts have a lingering hatred of him. Literally, writer after writer has said this.

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    I know this thread is a month quiet but I just read that when Shane McMahon was traveling on the road with the WWE, he was traveling partners with Bubba, D-Von and Paul Heyman.

    But yeah what you were saying, it has been said by WWE creative (mostly former WWE Creative writers Seth Mates and Andrew Goldstein) that HHH and Steph hate Paul Heyman. They think he is creatively stagnant and too agressive by half. It is said that Kevin Dunn is often taken in by Paul's ability to frame his ideas and thus Vince will always hear Paul out.

    However, Court Bauer has said that since 2006, Steph and Paul E. have had a much better relationship and that Steph took Heyman's firing hard and would lobby to try to get Heyman back on board. About HHH, it is known that HHH is who got Paul sent to OVW (and probably thus to NXT) because he believes in the style that Paul uses to teach guys about promos and Vince has always thought that Paul had an incredible eye for talent (which is why he paid Paul's bills since 1995). So it is a bit silly to say that Vince and Steph don't like Paul E. going to NXT because they pay for the plane tickets. It is known that Vince has asked Paul's opinion on guys in the past. Why do you think that Paul Heyman guys got office jobs with the WWE after ECW? Do you think Dreamer got into talent relations, Joey Styles got into the web department and Taz got on commentary by accident? No it is because Paul Heyman had stroke with someone (Vince obviously). Paul Heyman is hard to work with but he has always had supporters inside Vince's inner circle. It doesnt mean that Paul E had supporters on everything he did but to mischaracterize the decades long relationship between Paul Heyman and Vince Jr. is just not knowing the history. Vince McMahon is Paul Heyman's biggest supporter. He bankrolled ECW. He put him in charge of a booking committee twice. He put him in charge of developmental and he keeps giving him a job on TV.

    I went to an ECW show once, at the Elks Lodge in Queens. On that show there were 3 people working for ECW had WWF contracts. Vince put ECW on WWE TV twice. He let his contracted stars appear on ECW. Vince didn't have to do that. Vince killed companies with no compassion whatsoever. Vince destroyed legacies of other territories. With ECW? He made a documentary (best selling WWE documentary of all time) and he supported the product. Vince is the reason Paul Heyman has a legacy and Jerry Lawler doesnt. Vince promoted Paul Heyman The Genus much more than he ever did another booker from the outside (including the beloved Dusty Rhodes). That is respect. I believe some of the writers see Steph and Hunter's relationship with Paul through a April 2002-2003 lens. According to people in the know, Paul and Steph have a much better relationship and Paul and HHH always had an alright relationship (mostly thanks to their mutual friend Dusty Rhodes).

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