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Thread: Kevin Owens

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    I was under the impression that Bryan had become a lot less defiant on that and had accepted his condition more. Either way, never coming back to WWE.

    Trips as the great avenging babyface is an interesting proposition. Though he can only pull it off for short stints. Post Rumble to Wrestlemania it could work.
    if you listen to Bryan interviews lately, he was told by a doctor that he got bad info to retire, that the lesion was overblown so naturally Bryan has been on the hunt to get back...which he says is 85% likely he wrestles again but doubtful for WWE

    Yeah, i think it can work like KO pushing too far the McMahon family and Trips trying to defend the family's honor.

  2. #82
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    Oh right. Well that's clearly an update on what I'd heard regarding Bryan.

    The story for Hunter and KO kinda writes itself, especially with Steph getting in his face a few weeks back. The only issue is, the more people see Triple H the less they seem to like him, so you'd have to time it right to keep him baby. The last thing you'd want, especially given Kevin's popularity with some sections of the audience, is for Hunter to have burned out his goodwill.

    Though it sounds like this isn't the plan for Hunter, and given that apparently Vince thought the match with Jericho was a flop, I wouldn't be surprised if KO wasn't in something so high profile this time around. Maybe teaming up with Sami or something, I dunno. Needless to say if Vince isn't fully convinced and he's pissed people off with something backstage... well, you can fill in the rest for yourself I think.



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  3. #83
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    Well here is the thing. I bet that most of us watched the KO 365 and we all saw that Vince wasn't impressed with his Mania match against Jericho, but he was impressed with his matches later on against AJ Styles. AND Vince came back to TV to allow KO to headbutt and splash him from the top rope. Vince hasn't allowed anyone to put their hands on him in years. Regardless of what we think, Vince still sees KO in a high value spot.

    Look how good he made Shane look at HIAC. Look to how KO (and Zayn) are still in the top feud on Smackdown with Shane and now the entire roster. KO and Zayn were in the Main Event last night and won. I think KO will be given a run with the WWE title sooner than later.

    How I see the months playing out is like this:
    December at Clash of Champions: AJ successfully defends the WWE title against Jinder OR Jinder wins by way of DQ. Either way AJ retains.
    January at the Rumble: AJ wins cleanly over Jinder to retain the WWE title
    February at Elimination Chamber KO wins the chamber match to challenge AJ for the WWE title at Mania and he will win the WWE title there.

    I would have had KO win the Rumble, but since the Elimination Chamber is a Smackdown PPV, then a RAW superstar (gasp Reigns) is winning the Rumble to challenge Lesnar. The EC match will crown the #1 contender for the WWE Title, and KO will win that match.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    I would have had KO win the Rumble, but since the Elimination Chamber is a Smackdown PPV, then a RAW superstar (gasp Reigns) is winning the Rumble to challenge Lesnar. The EC match will crown the #1 contender for the WWE Title, and KO will win that match.
    I'm not sure it's that clear cut - just this year they did Orton vs Harper while in the main they had the title defended in the Chamber. Also they're not really fixed on which PPV is which roster's - for example, Smackdown had TLC last year but Raw had it this year. Hell in a Cell and No Mercy also swapped this year compared to last. So I think it's fluid as to which show will have EC at this stage in time - as far as I'm aware the only declared PPV is that Smackdown have Clash of Champions.

    Probably a bit still up in the air. I don't think they'll give Roman the win in Philly, personally.

    EDIT: In fact, I've just seen a report that Elimination Chamber will be a Raw event in February. Smackdown have Fast Lane in March. Also MitB is going to be a co-branded show next year, supposedly.
    Last edited by Oliver; 11-22-2017 at 11:57 AM.

  5. #85
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    I just read that EC was a Smackdown....but I guess you could be right. Then if that is the case, I see KO winning the Rumble. I hope that the WWE learned their lesson and will not have Reigns win another Rumble. KO winning will get a huge positive response especially in Philly.

    Then we all know that Reigns is beating Lesnar at Mania, and you do not need for him to the win the Rumble again.


    EDIT: So EC is officially a RAW event, so KO is winning the Rumble.
    Last edited by Powder; 11-22-2017 at 02:37 PM.

  6. #86
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    I see absolutely no chance that Owens/AJ is the title match at 'Mania. They ALWAYS go out of their way to put a fresh feud in the title slot when 'Mania comes around, and since AJ/Owens made the rounds plenty not too long ago I don't see any possibility they run it again in that high profile slot.

  7. #87
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    I think its gonna be Nakamura/AJ at mania tbh.

    Still think you could do KO vs. Triple H after Trips loses to Strowman at the Rumble..

  8. #88
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    Nak/AJ seems more likely for the title match. Still holding onto my Braun/Jinder idea in the back of my mind though.

    KO/HHH definitely still works if Triple H takes a loss to Strowman. Honestly think Triple H should be mostly taking losses at this point anyway, since he's so well established that he's a threat pretty much no matter what.

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    I see absolutely no chance that Owens/AJ is the title match at 'Mania. They ALWAYS go out of their way to put a fresh feud in the title slot when 'Mania comes around, and since AJ/Owens made the rounds plenty not too long ago I don't see any possibility they run it again in that high profile slot.
    Always? Rock and Austin had THREE! Mania matches. AND the plan for this year is Reigns vs Lesnar 2.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyking View Post
    I think its gonna be Nakamura/AJ at mania tbh.

    Still think you could do KO vs. Triple H after Trips loses to Strowman at the Rumble..
    The current plan is HHH vs Angle at the Rumble and Strowman vs HHH at Mania.

    Quote Originally Posted by mizfan View Post
    Nak/AJ seems more likely for the title match. Still holding onto my Braun/Jinder idea in the back of my mind though.

    KO/HHH definitely still works if Triple H takes a loss to Strowman. Honestly think Triple H should be mostly taking losses at this point anyway, since he's so well established that he's a threat pretty much no matter what.
    I would think that Vince would prefer KO to Nakamura as his WWE champion simply because of the Language barrier.

  10. #90
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    Rock and Austin is ancient history. And the fact they are going with a repeat in the Universal title match suggests a new bout in the other for balance. Helps his point if anything.



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  11. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powder View Post
    Always? Rock and Austin had THREE! Mania matches. AND the plan for this year is Reigns vs Lesnar 2.
    But in each case, those major matches were separated by years. We're talking a few months here. General rule is WWE never runs a title match at 'Mania that was already done at a PPV since the previous 'Mania. I think there's only 1 exception, as Austin/HBK ran on PPV something like 11 months before their 'Mania clash.

  12. #92
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    June 1997 to March 1998, I think?



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  13. #93
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    Fair enough, a bit less then but I'm pretty sure that remains the sole exception to the rule!

  14. #94
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    Unless you count the Angle and Lesnar false start from a couple of weeks before Wrestlemania XIX, yeah...



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  15. #95
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    I love ❤️ KO

  16. #96
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    As far as overweight dad bod wrestlers go, he’s second to Rikishi.

    As far as current WWE stars go, he’s the most overrated person of the past year. I find him uncharismatic, unmotivated and just a little bit disingenuous. I think he’s been carried a lot by the likes of Jericho and when he doesn’t have a fodder he gets found out. I’d rather Zayn was pushed more.

  17. #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by anonymous View Post
    I find him uncharismatic,.
    He's for sure overrated in some respects, but this is the one area where I don't think it is fair to criticise him. Genuinely a bit surprised.



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  18. #98
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    i find KO very captivating. I haven't seen much change in his work and he's in the best shape of his life.

  19. #99
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    I am inclined to agree. I must admit to being far from his biggest fan but I feel he's done a better job of establishing a consistent character and is consequently more immediately interesting and compelling than anyone else on the roster.

    My problems start when the bell rings, but that's a whole other thing.



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  20. #100
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    Via Reddit: Meltzer: Kevin Owen's 365 special did "huge numbers" on the Network.

    Take that for what it's worth.

  21. #101
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    My guess is because people like Kevin Owens and want great things for him. I said it a long time ago that Kevin Owens is the best all around Professional Wrestler/Sports Entertainer in the WWE on the current roster.

    Look at his qualities:
    Can cut good, compelling, serious, funny, promos
    Can wrestle great matches
    During his matches he talks shit and narrates his matches to engage the audience
    Has really good ring psychology
    Sells like a champ and understands that if he is "hurt" on a PPV, he continues to sell that injury on RAW or Smackdown
    Can work the audience

    I know other people have problems with Owens, but in my opinion he is the best all around performer today. AJ Styles is the best in ring, and Miz and Cena may be the best on the mic, but Owens is overall the best wrestler.

  22. #102
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    I think "all-around" talk can be a really sketchy designation. Being top 10 in 5 different categories is obviously something special, but more often than not, its a mark of a great midcard/upper-midcard talent rather than an undeniable company ace.

    For example, if you're talking "all around," then a guy like The Rock or Austin, even at their peak, were never the best wrestler in the WWE and someone like Triple H gets that spot even though Triple H was always a "guy who works with the guy who makes money."

    Similarly, Christian, at his peak, was probably a top 10 in every category, but as much as I love the guy, I think he was generally positioned correctly on the card.

    There are *maybe* 5 guys that I think were near-flawless at everything - Flair, Shawn, Eddie, Funk, and Savage - and I don't think Owens touches any of them.
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  23. #103
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    Just because Owens is not the TOP guy doesn't make me wrong with him being the best all around guy at the present. When he clearly is.

    The Rock was the TOP guy or a 99.9 to Austin's 100, but the Rock was never the best wrestler, and after Austin's neck injury he was never the same. But the Rock and Austin hit the nerve of the audience to make the actual wrestling not matter, just like Hogan. But in today's WWE, being able to wrestle a good to great match means something and based upon the KO365 it does to Vince as well. Reigns for all his faults, is actually pretty good in the ring, not great, but pretty good, but he is being positioned as the top guy for the past few years regardless of connecting with the audience, or cutting good promos. But he sure is pretty.

    Owens has the all the requirements of the top guy, but he may never be given the chance due to his body structure, which is really sad. Vince likes his guys pretty and/or jacked, and Owens is not pretty, nor is he jacked, but he is in top 5 (maybe even top 2/3) in every other category.

    And the 5 guys you mentioned, HBK, Flair, Eddie, Macho, and Funk, none of them were ever the TOP guy in the WWE. When Flair made his WWE debut he was still second to Hogan, HBK was second or tied for the top spot with Hart and Diesel, and Macho was never the top guy, always second to Hogan or Warrior. And Eddie? Never the top guy, there were guys names Rock, Austin, and Lesnar when Eddie was at his peak. And Funk? Please, never ever in the WWE long enough to be a top guy. Besides, I do not think that Funk was ever a top guy in a MAJOR promotion (WWF/E, WCW, NWA, ECW).

    BUT, you bring up a good question...who is the current TOP guy?
    My guess is Lesnar.
    Strowman could be easily, but we all know that Vince wants it to be Roman.
    AJ Styles could easily be as well.
    Last edited by Powder; 11-25-2017 at 02:41 PM.

  24. #104
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    I might be on board but you lose me at 'clearly'. Not sure there is a clear candidate.

    Top guy is either Cena or Reigns, but Lesnar has a high profile, important role. Probably still Cena for me, by a nose.

    Gotta disagree on Funk never being a top guy. Well over a year as NWA champ in the seventies speaks for itself.



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  25. #105
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    Then who could you say is the all around best?

    AJ lacks something and I am not sure what.

  26. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prime Time View Post
    Not sure there is a clear candidate.
    I'll just repeat that. Everyone lacks something for me. I've got no problem with Owens being in the mix and no problem with the idea that he might be the best, but I don't think anyone is head and shoulders above the rest.

    It might be a generational thing, though, because I was watching a show from the late eighties earlier today and it struck me that half the guys in the match would, transplanted to the modern day, immediately become the most talented guy on the roster, and possibly in wrestling. But yeah, for me now there's something missing for everyone, and I don't think anyone is the complete package.

    Also worth pointing out to add to the above that although Shawn had the ability with a microphone, in practice the vast majority of his interviews sucked.



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  27. #107
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    What show from the 80s?

    If it was a WWF show, then I cannot figure out who you might be referring to. Seriously. But if you are talking about NWA or early WCW then I could agree. I would bet that a guy like Arn Anderson would have been amazing today. That guy had it all except height.

  28. #108
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    It was WWF, a Survivor Series, and it occurred to me watching them that although a lot of the guys didn't get the respect they deserved and a lot didn't get the full opportunity to shine for New York, a lot of them who had come up that way were just plain better.

    Arn would have been in the WWF at the time I was watching to be honest, but I agree that he'd be another one who'd just be pure money.



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  29. #109
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    Imagine a guy like Jake Roberts today? Another one who would have been amazing.

    Ted DiBiasi Sr., Rick Rude, Roddy Piper, and Dusty Rhodes (but he would have been given the KO treatment bc of his body type)

    Mostly everyone else from the 80s couldn't talk. Steamboat included.

    But I'm sure Vince would have loved to have Tito Santana instead of ADR a few years ago.

  30. #110
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    Nah, a lot of guys could talk perfectly well for the time - I think the promo style that dominated is just out of date now, and because it's the fashion people think a lot of them are worse than they are. Though I agree Steamboat isn't necessarily one of them, and you'd realistically want his opponent to do most of the talking in a feud whether it was then or now, and very nearly regardless of who they were.

    Still, there were few better at getting a crowd into a match than Steamboat. I remember the story of when he was working with Austin and Pillman in WCW and they'd go on after a really hot match and Steamboat basically worked a spent crowd back into a hot one. Cracking insight into the man's talent.


    Anyway, kinda gotten away from KO here haven't I? So to make this a bit more relevant, the Owens documentary is getting rave reviews, and it'll probably do his stock no harm. It also sounds like the 'backstage heat' was also really more Sami's heat than Kevin's, anyway.



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  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Josh View Post
    I think "all-around" talk can be a really sketchy designation. Being top 10 in 5 different categories is obviously something special, but more often than not, its a mark of a great midcard/upper-midcard talent rather than an undeniable company ace.

    For example, if you're talking "all around," then a guy like The Rock or Austin, even at their peak, were never the best wrestler in the WWE and someone like Triple H gets that spot even though Triple H was always a "guy who works with the guy who makes money."

    Similarly, Christian, at his peak, was probably a top 10 in every category, but as much as I love the guy, I think he was generally positioned correctly on the card.

    There are *maybe* 5 guys that I think were near-flawless at everything - Flair, Shawn, Eddie, Funk, and Savage - and I don't think Owens touches any of them.
    Of that list, only Flair and Funk qualify as top guys who were 'near-flawless' at everything. The others were neither top guys, and were flawed in several ways (Michaels in particular). Eddie had a very short peak, by the time he mastered everything, his body had broken down on him, so you can maybe he was a main event caliber guy for about 2 years. Ric Flair is arguably the greatest wrestler of all time, and was the 'GOAT' in more ways than anyone else, was consistently the best longer than anyone else. There are other guys in the GOAT category who are more athletic than Flair, or whose best match is better than Flair's best match (Okada), but Flair has wrestled more good-great matches than probably anyone else night in and night out, had a longer peak than most (you're looking at 10-15 years), was one of the top draws, second only to someone like Hogan in the 80's, and he's probably drawn more live gates than everyone else aside from Hogan, and that's not even mentioning his tenure, his mic skills, his charisma, his champion presence, and so on.

    Terry Funk on the other hand - as many people who know far more about wrestling than I will ever know have said - is the best pure worker in wrestling history, in that you put him in front of a crowd, and he'll somehow be able to read the crowd and work them and have them react the way he wants to, and he has done this across generations. There are people who have had better matches than he has had, or had more good matches, but again, just in terms of psychology and working, he's the best. Then there is the fact that he was a draw and a great champion in his own right, his mic skills, his ability to constantly reinvent himself even long after his prime, and so on.

    The other 3 people on that list do not even compare to these two, if you take a holistic approach to wrestling. Overall, Michaels, Eddie, Savage are like top 30ish in the GOAT list, maybe top 50ish. People like Flair and Funk are arguably easily in the top 5, maybe Funk a bit lower.
    Last edited by Allystare; 11-25-2017 at 07:43 PM.

  32. #112
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    Strongly agree with Pete that a lot of these late 80s guys would seem like a huge deal today, but they have a couple of unfair advantages. First, WWF was great at booking them with simple, effective characters at that time, and there was very little risk of being overexposed due to the way the system worked at the time. Second, these guys could and did eat steroids by the handful, so visually it was much easier to look larger than life. And then you have a heart attack at 40, unfortunately.

    But yeah, those 80s guys could cut short and effective promos that I vastly prefer to the required 15 minute slogs we often see today. Steamboat really is a lousy promo but put him in the ring and he wins the crowd over without fail. Hardly a problem when you put him with the right opponent.

    Yeah, I like Michaels and I love peak Savage but neither guy is flawless in my eyes. Even Flair has an incredibly long and often terrible post prime to deal with. Still amazing legends, of course.

    Oh, and Owens... I dunno, I guess he could be in the conversation for best overall guy. I'm not really crazy about a lot of his matches though. When was the last time he had a great singles match? The last time he wrestled Sami in a big match, I'd say, which was over a year ago. He's had some good ones since, but he's not tearing the house down, even against guys like AJ.

  33. #113
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    I hated the booking for the AJ matches, i think they could have been so much better. i'm a huge fan of Owens but WWE imo really hasn't hit on his potential yet. Because he's able to play multiable roles, they don't let him be vicious enough esp with his promos, which are good but that translates to the ring when he can't just brutalize someone but i love his trash talk in the ring, that keeps me engaged in most matches.

    As for the 80s guys, every era is romanticized at some point. You had some awful promo guys in that era but the best were awesome cause they weren't so heavily scripted. Everyone understood their characters and played to it. As far as the wrestling, it was a simpler time, sell big, make the simplest moves matter and the crowd would eat it up partly because the characters were so well realized. Every fan was invested in someone.

    I think today's guys are tremendous athletes but because they are so heavily scripted and those that are awkward with it, feels forced... head to the ring and they have to make people care with their half baked characters and shitty WWE 50-50 booking so no one is really defined as a star besides part timers... They get in the ring, no one cares if you work a nice hold, or a good six minute match. Do something amazing! And most can't.

  34. #114
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    Yeah, I like Michaels and I love peak Savage but neither guy is flawless in my eyes. Even Flair has an incredibly long and often terrible post prime to deal with. Still amazing legends, of course.
    I have always held to the principle that you judge wrestlers by the quality and length of their peak. Flair wins because he had one of the longest peaks, and the quality was off the charts, in addition to all his other talents. I don't hold it against him at all that his later years were not up to par. How could they be? Wrestling is a physical performative thing, and someone in their late 40's and 50's (as Flair was) is just not going to be able to do what he did - that's just a fact of human physiology. You have to judge that on a curve and take it for what it is. It's just that the body and mind can't go anymore at that age. Unlike other art forms, where people peak at later ages, with sports, there's obviously a shorter time frame. And realize that it doesn't really mitigate or negate what he did in his peak. Flair could wrestle crappy matches for another 40 years and it wouldn't change my view of him. Of course I prefer that he wouldn't, but still. Flair could have retired at age 47, and again, it wouldn't improve my view of him at all. People often credit Michaels for retiring before he went really past his prime (although he had gotten somewhat limited and patterned in his last few years). I have no opinion on that. I know with reasonable certainty that if Michaels were still wrestling full time, his matches would be worse and decline as time went on. That's not because he's a bad wrestler, that's because he's a 50+ year old with a bad back and knees. It is what it is.

    And besides, in this business, there has been a long storied history in the old days of guys retiring after 30-40 years, meaning well past their prime. It was never held against them. Verne stuck around well past his due date, but he's still an all-time legend and hall of famer. What about Andre, who was the unmitigated drizzling shits by 1983, and yet would go on to have one of the most significant programs in wrestling history 4 years later with Hogan? The same applies to countless others, and not just in America, but Mexico and Japan as well. Even Flair's post-peak was somewhat memorable. He was still an ungodly talker and entertainer, and even well into the late 90's, he was either the top or #2 ratings draw, until Goldberg took off, if you can believe that. Even in his late 50's, a broken down Flair managed to carry a broken down Hogan and Foley to like 3 star matches. Sorry for the rant, but I always hear the 'if only Flair hadn't stuck around so long, he would be better', which I've always violently disagreed with.

    -------------
    I agree 10,000x with mizfan on the promos. No comparison, the 80's guys are way better and had a better structure. Today's promos are the worst thing about wrestling today. And apparently many of the old time wrestlers and commentators have made this exact point (Austin, Cornette, Meltzer, Alvarez),
    Last edited by Allystare; 11-26-2017 at 04:21 PM.

  35. #115
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    WCW was pushing Flair out the door in 1991... 12 or so years later, he's having good matches with Triple H on Raw. Would i have liked to not seen him wrestle in TNA? Sure but as much as his flaws as a person can be pointed out, he worked a style where he didn't really have to retire until he couldn't do it anymore. Most guys Flairs age post prime could barely do half the stuff he could do.

  36. #116
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    WCW pushing Flair out was completely stupid though. That was Jim Herd being Him Herd. Flair was still the top star in WCW in 1991 and probably the second biggest star after Hogan at that time, in wrestling.

    And while it's true that Flair - relative to today - worked a safe style, he had an *insane* touring schedule, and would wrestle longer matches than most on a consistent basis, often going the full hour Broadway. WWE main eventers then had like 10 minutes, nowadays, most get 15-25. Flair went 30-60 regularly on random live shows. So you can't just pin his longevity to the style, because he has more mileage than most. Bear in mind that most injuries occur not from 'risky moves', but just from freak accidents doing regular moves or bad execution. The dude just has incredible endurance, conditioning, and luck.

    He had that famous plane crash where he switched seats, by dumb luck, with Valentine, whose career ended directly as a result of that crash, and it was speculated that if Flair hadn't changed seats, he would have been the one permanently out of a career. Despite having gotten the 'good' seat, he was still told by doctors that his back was broken and that he shouldn't wrestle again, and yet here we are 40 years later. Then there's the 'lightning story' where he had an umbrella, and after getting off a plane, it got hit by lightning, which bounced onto some guy behind Flair, and the guy died. Just luck.

    Then there are all the stories about Flair partying and drinking like crazy in the 80's all night long, and then he would some still show up at the gym on time, or how he would turn in at a show all tired, take a nap, then get up and somehow manage to go 45 minutes.

    A good Terry Taylor story about Flair doing just that:


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    Yeah if you watch ESPN doc on Flair its pretty crazy how much he actually drinked and was able to perform at a high level.

  38. #118
    Senior Member Oliver's Avatar
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    The thing that probably saves 80s guys in terms of promos over current guys is that they're not expected to go out there and cut promos that are long and full of recap of a feud constantly. Some of the most effective promos WWE actually does are the backstage bits that end up on Fallout, where talent have about a minute or so to really get it done.

    I mean, what's Hard Times, about three minutes? Macho Man on Roberts is about four? Even at the peak of the Attitude Era Raw promo time wasn't exactly long for performers unless it absolutely had to be, or the bit was properly over. The DX Nation Parody (for example) is about five minutes, for example.

    You get exceptions, of course, and some times they work - the Mankind/Rock This Is Your Life bit must be nearly half an hour. But how many times have we seen a Raw opening promo where a talent, or a number of talents, has to spend about 20 minutes recapping what happened a week or two before, saying how upset they are about it, and then saying what they're going to do about it?

  39. #119
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    Every damn week lol. I mean WWE tv has gotten so predictable and with Raw being 3 hours they feel they have to setup the show with a promo segment, so they'll have someone come out and do the 15 min recap of last night or last week and setup what's for tonight. Whether it works or not doesn't matter, its just always going to be a thing they do and that's why they count on guys like Owens, who is in one of the few guys who can do segs like that and keep it interesting.

  40. #120
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    The long and short of it is that unless you've proven you can handle it, your promo time should be about 90 seconds, max. Get in, hit your lines, and get out. The duelling microphones stuff they did in the Attitude Era only worked because you had Austin, Rocky, Vince and Foley all capable of tearing it up, then a few other guys like Hunter, and later Jericho and Angle, who could add to the mix.

    Now, it was basically Cena who could do it for the longest time, and everyone else floundered. To be fair Owens can, too, but that's still what, one per show? Bring back the talking to Mean Gene style promos, I say!



    @lopprimetime

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