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Thread: AAA/CMLL/General Lucha Libre

  1. #81
    Long time no post! Today is the 57th birthday of lucha libre legend Negro Casas, who not only is one of the greatest luchadors ever but remains one of the best to this day. Yes, even at 57. He'll be working tonight on his birthday against Maximo in Arena Mexico too, which should be a good match. I'll try to post the link here; in the meantime I'll be posting some of his best matches throughout the day. We'll start with his first, a long forgotten classic with future rival El Hijo del Santo from 1987 under the World Wrestling Association banner. It's DailyMotion, but it's a better quality video than the YouTube version. Hope you enjoy!



  2. #82
    What else is on? JSR-13's Avatar
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    I'm loving these LU tributes, Cult. Just read the one on Melissa.
    Don't Touch That Dial!



  3. #83
    Queen of Extreme Irishsara's Avatar
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    So what the fuck is going on with AAA, Pentagon Jr, Fenix and Konnan?

  4. #84
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    Konnan has been out of AAA for awhile, he runs a new promotion called the Crash.. Pentagon, Fenix and Garza Jr jumped to crash.. which they're free to do however, Pentagon had to change his name AAA owns the tradmark.. .he's now a believe Penta Cero Meido..

    The real interesting take from all of this is how will LU react? The tapings i've heard of are so far away that Pentagon might not even care about the complication.... but LU has strong ties AAA so basically if LU backs AAA, Then i could see Pentagon gone from LU.... but if LU wants any chance to continue, they need Pentagon..

    its quite a pickle. one i don't think that will unravel for awhile..

    Cult should have more info.

  5. #85
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    I know Konnan has been Rey's US booker for awhile. Does that mean Pentagon, Fenix and Garza Jr are working more US/UK indies?

    Konnan has a serious feud with Pena (and his brother-in-law Joaquin Roldan) for awhile now and it isnt the first time he has lead a walkout.
    Last edited by Irishsara; 01-23-2017 at 12:57 AM.

  6. #86
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    Pentagon has been getting more work stateside.. and with AAA power structure now with the Riordans' (Dorian Riordan is apparently the GM of the parent company of Lucha Underground/ AAA which is why there's a conflict) it seems to me AAA is falling apart and if I'm running LU, I cut ties with AAA asap.

    I was reading this article about this situation and it was said that this could possibly lead to these guys ending up on a Latin american WWE network thing....or at least, that's the motivation.. to try to get more dates in the states since LU tapings are far off...



    Also Pentagon Jr new name is

    Penta El 0M
    Last edited by Lazyking; 01-23-2017 at 01:09 AM.

  7. #87
    First off Sara, Antonio Pena has been dead since about 2006. So he and Konnan haven't been feuding since then, and had in fact made up anyway before Pena's death anyway.

    As for this whole deal, all it basically means is that Pentagon, Garza Jr. and Daga are out of AAA (Fenix has been gone since August), in with The Crash and Konnan now controls there US bookings much like he does with Rey Mysterio. That's it. They can't get onto the WWE Network special because they're contracted to LU till season three is done being shown (which makes this the only good thing about the hiatus they just went on) and whenever LU returns for season four it shouldn't affect their status at all. My understanding remains that Lucha Underground contracts and AAA contracts aren't mutually exclusive even for the guys who AAA helped get signed there; if you're signed to LU it means your obligated to them but not anyone else if you don't want. So the reality is that LU doesn't have to do anything; they can just continue to use Pentagon and Fenix and that'll be that. The issue will be whether they make that choice. I can tell you right now for a fact though that Eric Van Wagenen (LU's show runner) and Chris DeJoseph (LU's head writer) would tell AAA to go fuck themselves in a heartbeat (and to an extent already did when they brought back Sexy Star for season three even after AAA fired her). So my guess is Pentagon, Fenix and other guys who bolted AAA like Jack Evans will all be back for LU's fourth season, provided there is a fourth season, and the LU/AAA relationship is pretty much cooked aside from the association with Dorian. The bigger thing here is that The Crash now has the most loaded roster in Mexico aside from CMLL and unless AAA gets their shit together they could be within range of challenging AAA for the #2 promotion in Mexico within a year.


  8. #88
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    I was hoping that Pentagon and like would jump to CMLL but cubsfan says that's unlikely.

  9. #89
    If that happened it would be the greatest day ever considering how awesome CMLL is right now. There's no chance of that happening though because Konnan and Paco Alonso still hate each other due to Konnan bolting CMLL to form AAA with Pena back in 1992. Hence these guys will stick with The Crash and try to make a go of it there.


  10. #90
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    Can guys work CMLL and Lucha Underground at the same time, theoretically?

  11. #91
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    Yes, since as Cult has pointed out, LU contracts are seprate to AAA deals.. only thing effected is the LU/AAA relationship....Which at this point seems meaningless to hold on to..

    I think the main guy LU went to anyway was Konnan as most of his guys were the guys brought into LU.

  12. #92
    mizfan, LU guys haven't worked CMLL to this point mainly because of the relationship with AAA. If LU is to break off with AAA now however then I wouldn't be shocked if we saw some sort of relationship with either CMLL or The Crash. The latter is more likely though; not only does it keep their relationship good with the guys/girls that they have working there already, but it opens the door for guys like Flamita (who was Night Claw before his relationship with AAA went up in flames) and even Konnan himself to return.


  13. #93
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    Man I would freakin' love to have Flamita back. That dude is awesome.

    I would love to see LU become a neutral ground that was willing and able to book anyone from below the border. Probably unlikely, but that's the dream.

  14. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    First off Sara, Antonio Pena has been dead since about 2006. So he and Konnan haven't been feuding since then, and had in fact made up anyway before Pena's death anyway.
    I was under the impression they always had heat and that kiss and make up stuff was Konnan revising history. I also thought Joaquin Roldan and Konnan still had heat and part of Konnan's falling out with AAA last year was that Joaquin was becoming more active behind the scenes (showing up to LU taping too) and this was one of the driving points to the falling out. I mean Pena, Konnan and Joaquin Roldan have heat going back to the 1996 walkout (I assume Pena was alive then?). But I could be wrong.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    They can't get onto the WWE Network special because they're contracted to LU till season three is done being shown
    Wrong. They could get on the Network but not Raw or Smackdown. The Network (Like New Japan World) doesnt violate the deal because it is not a television product and not covered under the non-compete. It is also why LU stars can work FloSlam. The WWE Network is not direct competition so it is not covered under the non-compete. So if Crash (or PROGRESS or any of the companies that Fenix is working for in the UK) sign a distribution deal with the network then it wouldnt be a conflict.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    the LU/AAA relationship is pretty much cooked aside from the association with Dorian.
    Doesnt Dorian own a large stake of Lucha Underground (supposedly equal to MGMs) and he has an EP credit. He is certainly both on the ground at the tapings and in the writers room. How much stroke is he supposed to have? That is also why it is unlikely Lucha Underground could work with CMLL directly (because Dorian would get the lawyers involved).
    Last edited by Irishsara; 01-23-2017 at 05:33 AM.

  15. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Irishsara View Post
    I was under the impression they always had heat and that kiss and make up stuff was Konnan revising history. I also thought Joaquin Roldan and Konnan still had heat and part of Konnan's falling out with AAA last year was that Joaquin was becoming more active behind the scenes (showing up to LU taping too) and this was one of the driving points to the falling out. I mean Pena, Konnan and Joaquin Roldan have heat going back to the 1996 walkout (I assume Pena was alive then?). But I could be wrong.

    It wasn't. Konnan and Pena in fact made up a couple of years before Pena died (which was October of 2006), around 2004 when Konnan was brought back in to AAA. They had had tremendous heat prior to that after Konnan bolted AAA in 1996 for Promo Azteca and took a lot of the WCW luchadors with him (Mysterio, La Parka, Psicosis, Juvy among others), followed by Pena handing out their old gimmicks to any dude with a pulse (hence you've got multiple Parka's, Psicosis' and even Mascara Sagrada's walking around right now). By all accounts though they patched things up and were on good terms by the time Pena died; in fact I'm pretty sure Konnan is one of the few people Pena did reconcile with. He never got the chance to with guys like Blue Panther, Sagrada or Parka, who were three of his biggest stars at one point in the mid 90's. Also, Joaquin has zero involvement with LU. The only one who does is Dorian, and everything he's tried with LU has been shot down by Van Wagenen and DeJoseph.



    Quote Originally Posted by Irishsara View Post
    Wrong. They could get on the Network but not Raw or Smackdown. The Network (Like New Japan World) doesnt violate the deal because it is not a television product and not covered under the non-compete. It is also why LU stars can work FloSlam. The WWE Network is not direct competition so it is not covered under the non-compete. So if Crash (or PROGRESS or any of the companies that Fenix is working for in the UK) sign a distribution deal with the network then it wouldnt be a conflict.

    If this were true then both El Hijo del Fantasma (King Cuerno) and Ricochet (Prince Puma) would've been in the CWC last year. I know for a fact WWE wanted Fantasma to go and we all assume they wanted Ricochet, but neither did because the LU contracts prevented them (the interesting thing is Pentagon and Fenix were never considered. I can't speak for Fenix, but I have been told that WWE has never had interest in Pentagon and still doesn't. They only would to quell his buzz and wouldn't have him use the gimmick if he were brought in). In theory Sara you're right; if they can appear on FloSlam then the WWE Network should count to. For whatever reason (perhaps because it is WWE and FloSlam is more indie based and something LU may be trying to get a working relationship with) it's not. On top of that I imagine in order to appear on this Latin American tournament guys will have to sign exclusive WWE contracts like the UK guys did, which would contradict the LU ones. So unless WWE is hiring lawyers to get these guys when they can just get any freelance luchador out there without the hassle, you won't see these guys in WWE.


    Quote Originally Posted by Irishsara View Post
    Doesnt Dorian own a large stake of Lucha Underground (supposedly equal to MGMs) and he has an EP credit. He is certainly both on the ground at the tapings and in the writers room. How much stroke is he supposed to have? That is also why it is unlikely Lucha Underground could work with CMLL directly (because Dorian would get the lawyers involved).

    He has the smallest piece of the pie. The guys with the largest stakes are Mark Burnett's people, El Rey (run by Robert Rodriguez) and then Dorian. He recently was given a figurehead position of sorts but as far as I know that's all the business side; he has never had any serious say in creative (like I said earlier, Van Wagenen and DeJoseph have never changed anything because of Dorian's say so) and never had a big hand in tapings aside from just watching from the stands. The only thing he and AAA have contributed is the talent that was initially brought in (which as Lazyking pointed out likely had more to do with Konnan than Dorian) and Flamita and Konnan leaving. Now those latter two could point to AAA maybe having an influence over who LU does and doesn't keep, but that contradicts LU keeping Sexy Star around even after she had her falling out with AAA a month before season three started taping. I can tell you right now that if push comes to shove, LU will pick Pentagon, Fenix and the rest of the crew over AAA, and for all I know that leads to Dorian (by all accounts I've received a spineless slime ball) choosing LU over AAA and his own family too. In any event he's not a huge deal at all by himself, so if LU wanted to break away from AAA there's little he can do. He'd either have to go along with it or get shit canned.


  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    If this were true then both El Hijo del Fantasma (King Cuerno) and Ricochet (Prince Puma) would've been in the CWC last year. I know for a fact WWE wanted Fantasma to go and we all assume they wanted Ricochet, but neither did because the LU contracts prevented them (the interesting thing is Pentagon and Fenix were never considered. I can't speak for Fenix, but I have been told that WWE has never had interest in Pentagon and still doesn't. They only would to quell his buzz and wouldn't have him use the gimmick if he were brought in). In theory Sara you're right; if they can appear on FloSlam then the WWE Network should count to. For whatever reason (perhaps because it is WWE and FloSlam is more indie based and something LU may be trying to get a working relationship with) it's not. On top of that I imagine in order to appear on this Latin American tournament guys will have to sign exclusive WWE contracts like the UK guys did, which would contradict the LU ones. So unless WWE is hiring lawyers to get these guys when they can just get any freelance luchador out there without the hassle, you won't see these guys in WWE.
    This is the one that's interesting to me. If Konnan were to hook up with WWE for some sort of Mexican territory like they're getting at in the UK, or even just to air his shows on The Network like ICW, Lucha Underground okaying people working for Floslam on the grounds that it's a digital service and not a television show might just bite them in the ass. Konnan could fairly easily find a lawyer to argue that since they're both OTT content delivery services, that if they can do one they should be allowed to do another.

    These Lucha Underground deals are the shits, though. They've got this weird hybrid wrestling promotion/television production thing going on using a TV production/airing schedule (and contract schedule) with a pro wrestling type exclusive contract. The pro wrestling exclusive contract structure works if you're providing these guys with regular work with an added PO per night, but as it stands if they want to keep working they largely have to turn down more lucrative booking opportunities for a company that's not paying them regularly per night. I have never heard of someone on a TV show having an exclusive contract that doesn't allow them to do anything else until either they are written off, the contract ends, and/or everything they shot airs. RDJ isn't being told that because he's Iron Man he can't do anything else when they're not shooting (although, he's got that sweet, sweet, fuck you money from Disney and Sherlock these days, so he doesn't bother). Jeremy Renner is in goddamn everything. Norman Reedus appears to do whatever the fuck pleases him.
    Last edited by Team Farrell; 01-23-2017 at 04:27 PM.

  17. #97
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    How is it that much different from TNA Contracts? I get that LU doesn't have alot of taping scheduled but they have these contracts to protect themselves from their talent leaving suddenly. I'm not even sure we are going to get a fourth season but like a TV Show isn't going to let people out of their contract to go do another show without writing them off.

    These guys can and do work everywhere else they want. Especially with less commitments to AAA, you can expect more US indy dates

    The WWE UK deals are way more restrictive in my mind because as of right now, there's no plan in sight for those guys to get work from WWE and they're getting pulled from indy bookings...(WXW just announced Bate and others are off their London show)
    Last edited by Lazyking; 01-23-2017 at 05:06 PM.

  18. #98
    I've grown sick of hearing people bitch and moan about LU deals and then conveniently ignore even worse ones. Are the LU contracts perfect? No, those guys should be making more money than they do. But aside from guys being blocked from doing WWE tournaments (and for good reason because WWE would gobble a good chunk of them up and then everyone would be laughing at LU for not holding onto their talent) the guys and girls can work anywhere they want. I haven't seen LU block Ricochet from working Japan, Sexy Star from Shimmer, Fenix and Pentagon from PWG and so on and so forth. As long as the shows don't interfere with the days LU is taping the talent is free to be wherever save other US TV promotions, and even then LU has allowed exceptions (Ricochet once worked an LU taping then went right to Reseda to work PWG on the same day). It's nowhere near as awful as people make it out to be and the talent will tell you that too. The only thing the roster of LU complains about is the cash and this recent hiatus (which even the immediate higher ups were against); beyond that they love working there.


  19. #99
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    Yeah, as TV contracts go they honestly seem pretty good. The more popular guys from LU work other companies like crazy, some in large part thanks to the exposure LU gave them.

  20. #100
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    From what i understand, AAA was taking a chunk of money from these guys when they would take outside bookings.. AAA is in really bad shape. I think the blame falls on them more than anything.

    LU wanted talent to keep dates open and that was annoying when they didn't know when they would be taping but no one knows if they'll even tape again, its not gonna happen soon so these guys are going to take every date they can.

  21. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    This is the one that's interesting to me. If Konnan were to hook up with WWE for some sort of Mexican territory like they're getting at in the UK, or even just to air his shows on The Network like ICW, Lucha Underground okaying people working for Floslam on the grounds that it's a digital service and not a television show might just bite them in the ass. Konnan could fairly easily find a lawyer to argue that since they're both OTT content delivery services, that if they can do one they should be allowed to do another.
    I doubt they would even need a lawyer. The thing is, i was under the impression that it was more the WWE's choice not to bring in guys under any sort of contract with anyone else rather than the Lucha deals preventing guys from appearing on the WWE network. They do not want to risk tampering charges (which is why guys like Steve Corino and KoR are waiting 90 days after their contracts expire before signing a WWE deal). If it happens like Konnan's Crash promotion getting on the Network then the WWE has deniability for their biggest roadblock for bringing in guys not under their contract.

    Also why would the South American Tournament (is it going to have the finals at a house show in Rio?) guys have to sign exclusive deals when the CWC guys didnt, especially if they are already working for a WWE affiliated group (like a lot of the Evolve guys were)

  22. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lazyking View Post
    How is it that much different from TNA Contracts? I get that LU doesn't have alot of taping scheduled but they have these contracts to protect themselves from their talent leaving suddenly. I'm not even sure we are going to get a fourth season but like a TV Show isn't going to let people out of their contract to go do another show without writing them off.

    These guys can and do work everywhere else they want. Especially with less commitments to AAA, you can expect more US indy dates

    The WWE UK deals are way more restrictive in my mind because as of right now, there's no plan in sight for those guys to get work from WWE and they're getting pulled from indy bookings...(WXW just announced Bate and others are off their London show)
    I would say that TNA contracts are better than just about any other contract in the industry, next to the ones for the WWE main roster's top guys, because they are virtually unrestricted so long as they are free for TNA dates.

    Galloway works unrestricted for EVOLVE and basically wherever he chooses, including on their iPPV shows. The Broken Hardys are going to be working with ROH, and my impression has always been that the reason we haven't seen more TNA-ROH crossover in the past is because ROH didn't want it rather than the other side. Their guys do basically whatever they want outside of TNA. The only thing that makes their contracts a pain in the ass is the upheaval over the last year. Rescheduling TV tapings at the last minute forcing them to be pulled from scheduled bookings and whatnot.

    The UK contracts are looking more and more restrictive, but we'll see in the long run. If WWE is currently in the process of setting something up to make these guys more money with more bookings in the immediate future, then pull them from other iPPV shows. If not, than yeah it's bullshit. Like I said, make guys exclusive all you want so long as you are setting these guys up with regular bookings and regular PO's. Otherwise, let them work, unrestricted, wherever they can.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    I've grown sick of hearing people bitch and moan about LU deals and then conveniently ignore even worse ones. Are the LU contracts perfect? No, those guys should be making more money than they do. But aside from guys being blocked from doing WWE tournaments (and for good reason because WWE would gobble a good chunk of them up and then everyone would be laughing at LU for not holding onto their talent) the guys and girls can work anywhere they want. I haven't seen LU block Ricochet from working Japan, Sexy Star from Shimmer, Fenix and Pentagon from PWG and so on and so forth. As long as the shows don't interfere with the days LU is taping the talent is free to be wherever save other US TV promotions, and even then LU has allowed exceptions (Ricochet once worked an LU taping then went right to Reseda to work PWG on the same day). It's nowhere near as awful as people make it out to be and the talent will tell you that too. The only thing the roster of LU complains about is the cash and this recent hiatus (which even the immediate higher ups were against); beyond that they love working there.
    I just think that LU needs better contracts overall. To say to guys "you are tied to us until season three airs in its entirety...and we're putting a hold on when that date is", it bullshit. As of this moment right now, they are filming a television show. They are not a wrestling promotion.

  23. #103
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    How tied up are the LU guys though? I know they can't work other US TV but I thought they could do basically anything else under the sun. It'd be nice if LU would flex for per appearance stuff in TNA and ROH but I'm not sure they're even particularly interested.

  24. #104
    As I said earlier they aren't really that tied up. They can pretty much work everywhere they want except WWE, TNA and ROH (CMLL was on that list before but I'm not so sure now), unless an event falls on a day they tape. In short, they're basically allowed to work wherever except the places that most likely would take their talent. I don't see the issue with that. Certainly they should be paid more and the El Rey Network/Mark Burnett have taken advantage of the deals by stretching things out. At the same time the reality is that only Puma and Cuerno really wanted to get out (and that's to go to New Japan); everyone else loves working in LU from what I'm told, and even the guys besides Puma and Cuerno who wanted out of deals only did so so they could re-negotiate with LU and LU alone. They love it there and they love that they can work any indie anywhere.


  25. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Farrell View Post
    I just think that LU needs better contracts overall. To say to guys "you are tied to us until season three airs in its entirety...and we're putting a hold on when that date is", it bullshit. As of this moment right now, they are filming a television show. They are not a wrestling promotion.
    Then they should not have signed the contract. Nobody is putting a gun to these guys' heads, forcing them to sign. They know the risks, and it will pay off for some and won't for others.

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    There's only a few guys that i think shouldn't have signed, one of them being Ricochet.. the guy was coming into his own at the time and would have been able to sign wherever if he hadn't.. more dates in Japan, possibly WWE.. Now, he has to wait... I'm not saying he's that restricted, just saying he really didn't need LU especially since they put him under a mask.

    But having said that, none of the AAA guys even get work on the US indies without LU.... Jeff Cobb is just another guy without LU... and so on... I'd def sign any contract that got me out of Mexico and/or made myself a name within 6 months...

  27. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by comfortablynumb View Post
    Then they should not have signed the contract. Nobody is putting a gun to these guys' heads, forcing them to sign. They know the risks, and it will pay off for some and won't for others.
    Well, not really. The duty of good faith and fair dealing is implied in every contract. Lucha Underground has the duty of fair dealing with its contractual obligations to their wrestlers in good faith and not taking advantage of vulnerabilities created by the seasonal nature of contract performance. The duration, restrictions and payment schedule of the contract should have been better defined.

  28. #108
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    Is anybody accusing LU of breaching terms of the contract? The talent knew when signing LU was going to be on a season-to-season basis with cancel/renewal possibilities and there would be much uncertainty. It's as simple as that. Don't like that you may be in limbo? Don't sign. To some it's still worth it. Same goes for the WWE UK guys.
    Last edited by comfortablynumb; 01-24-2017 at 05:27 PM.

  29. #109
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    I honestly would not have known who any of these people were (except of course Johnny) if it weren't for LU, and I'm glad they signed. I know it would probably be a dream come true for these guys to go to WWE, but I'm not looking forward to it, as I know there's not a chance that there will be a commitment to story telling and character development like they received in LU. I'm hoping the people up top get their stuff straight, take care of their stars, and get back to rolling through the seasons. This is too good of a thing to mess up.
    Don't Touch That Dial!



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    No one watches it and they're losing money like crazy. Lucha Underground needs to find revenue streams or cut bait. Can't fund a losing project forever.

    Alot of these guys aren't even going to WWE, it just would be nice to know what the fuck you're doing.

  31. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by comfortablynumb View Post
    Is anybody accusing LU of breaching terms of the contract? The talent knew when signing LU was going to be on a season-to-season basis with cancel/renewal possibilities and there would be much uncertainty. It's as simple as that. Don't like that you may be in limbo? Don't sign. To some it's still worth it. Same goes for the WWE UK guys.
    No it doesnt tho. The WWE UK guys have defined duration. The contract itself was entirely laid out in the offer. The Lucha Underground contracts were not. There wasnt that consensus ad idem over the duration of the contract (sort of like a meeting of the minds).

    There is a lot of heat because they won’t start taping until October 2017. It was moved to the spring. They expanded the episodes in the seasons and now Season 4 isnt likely to start until early 2018. The reason this is fucked up is that it extends the years of the seven season contracts that most of the wrestlers are on. This is why that, since then, the deals signed by Mysterio and offered to Ricochet after the initial contracts were in years and not seasons. It is possible that those contracts wouldnt hold up in court (the only violation in Lucha Underground had was Hernandez and Lucha Underground released him rather than go to open court). By expanding and fluctuating the number of episodes in a season, there are questions of mutuality and reasonableness. Is it reasonable that, when the wrestler signed the contract, he reasonably believed that the seasons could be anywhere between 26 and 40 episodes and that the company could raise the number episodes without consideration?

  32. #112
    Lucha Underground did not make the call to put the show on hiatus Sara. I've heard directly from people within the company that it wasn't their call and Meltzer said himself when discussing the Pentagon situation that LU wasn't involved in stretching the season out. The TV Network (El Rey) is the one who made the decision, and as far as I know they still haven't even given the higher ups in the company a return date. So this isn't the company trying to keep Ricochet or anyone from going anywhere; this is El Rey trying (and failing miserably) to stretch out the season. This all goes back to the issues I talked about in an article I wrote last week. The people on the ground level of the LU promotion (the wrestlers, agents, writing team and production team) are all doing everything they can to make this work. The problem is the people with the money (El Rey and Mark Burnett) have basically sabotaged it by a) not putting any money in it (besides Burnett and Rodriguez being a combined $490 million with plenty of connections) and b) not getting how the wrestling business works. That's the issue, not the contracts that, while not traditional by wrestling standards (they were drawn up by Burnett to be reality TV deals), aren't the worst thing in the world. It be one thing if they can't work anywhere but that's not the case; as long as it isn't one of the other televised US companies or isn't on the same day as an LU taping, the LU roster can work anywhere they want at any time for anyone (including New Japan and FloSlam promotions that are streamed). That's more than anyone can say for the WWE UK deals, which pay those guys less than anything the LU roster makes and restricts them from working anywhere, including streams like FloSlam. It's really funny how everyone can bitch about the LU contracts (when most know jack shit about them) but say nothing about what WWE is doing.


  33. #113
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    I think therein lies the problem with the Lucha Underground concept. You have two different parties trying to two different things.

    Burnett and Rodriguez are clearly trying to produce a traditional television show with seasons, etc. The people on the ground level appear to want to be booking a pro wrestling promotion.

    Now, it's almost like the network is trying to have it both ways. It isn't unusual for a TV show to take a midseason hiatus. What they seem to want, though, is to not leave too much time between seasons, which really isn't the usual course (hell, I sometimes have to wait from May through September for the next season of my favourite shows). It's almost like they want the WWE style "no off season" without footing the bill for 52 episodes per year.

    It's fucking over the product, because the show is out of sight and out of mind for, let's say, 90k of the 150k who usually watch it. It's fucking over the talent because it's needlessly extending contractual obligations. And it's fucking over the company because how do you go about booking a touring brand if you're being treated like a television property (I'd imagine that they aren't being given a touring budget) that you don't know for certain is going to have another season?

  34. #114
    Queen of Extreme Irishsara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cult Icon View Post
    Lucha Underground did not make the call to put the show on hiatus Sara. I've heard directly from people within the company that it wasn't their call and Meltzer said himself when discussing the Pentagon situation that LU wasn't involved in stretching the season out. The TV Network (El Rey) is the one who made the decision, and as far as I know they still haven't even given the higher ups in the company a return date. So this isn't the company trying to keep Ricochet or anyone from going anywhere; this is El Rey trying (and failing miserably) to stretch out the season
    But it isnt an intent issue. By adding episodes and stretching out seasons, they are locking up talent and stretching out the cheap contracts without giving the talent consideration. Aren't they? What stops Lucha Underground from saying that season 3 will be 120 episodes and last 3 years, would a reasonable talent have expected that to be the duration of a contract for 3 seasons?

    For a contract to be valid, the parties must be in agreement about the provisions when the contract is signed. This is called mutual consent. What would a reasonable person assume a season length would be? This is basic elements of a contract shit.

    In what way does this not fuck Ricochet? Remember, the standard Lucha Underground contracts prevent talents from appearing on TV with another promotion until six months after their last appearance in the Temple airs. If by going on "hiatus" instead of ending a season means they keep a top draw until the "end of season 3" then why wouldnt they do it? This could keep Ricochet bound for an extra 12-24 months without any increased consideration or new mutual agreement. Honestly, if "Prince Puma" filed, Lucha would probably release him because if the talent wins in court, it frees the entire roster because it invalidates every "season" deal.

    It probably doesnt effect Pentagon until he is at least 7 years into his deal. But once he has completed 7 reasonable "seasons" then he could easily take them to court.
    Last edited by Irishsara; 01-24-2017 at 09:51 PM.

  35. #115
    What else is on? JSR-13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irishsara View Post
    But it isnt an intent issue. By adding episodes and stretching out seasons, they are locking up talent and stretching out the cheap contracts without giving the talent consideration. Aren't they? What stops Lucha Underground from saying that season 3 will be 120 episodes and last 3 years, would a reasonable talent have expected that to be the duration of a contract for 3 seasons?
    Wouldn't the answer to this question be the network? Wouldn't they be the ones who decide how many episodes the show gets to air per season?
    Don't Touch That Dial!



  36. #116
    Queen of Extreme Irishsara's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR-13 View Post
    Wouldn't the answer to this question be the network? Wouldn't they be the ones who decide how many episodes the show gets to air per season?
    So, in my opinon*, the question of a season would revert to what is called an Industry Standard. An industry standard is the average by which those in a particular field define terms and give meaning. So something like the term season would probably be defined by average of the television industry. If the court used the television industry in general, they probably would come to the conclusion that a season is either a year of programing or 22 episodes. 22 episodes is the average network television season. The court might consider this is what both parties believed would be the length of time they were signed for. This would be bad for El Rey, especially, because if the court looks at what defines a season for El Rey's original programing they would be forced to look at 2 other examples. The 2 other original programming created by El Rey are From Dusk Til Dawn (The Series) and Matador.

    From Dusk Til Dawn The Series : Total Seasons – 3 Total Episodes 30. Length of a season – 10 episodes

    Matador Total seasons 1 Total Episodes/Length of season – 13

    So, at worst, for Lucha Underground, the court could in theory conclude that a season for El Rey, is between 10-13 episodes.

    Lets take a look at the 3 most likely outcomes for industry standard.

    Industry Standard for Television - 22 episodes = 1 season - Lucha Undergroud has produced 84 episodes to date. That is 4 episodes away from 4 seasons. That means Ricochet would be able to kick out of his contract. That means the rest of the roster is signed for 70 more episodes

    El Rey Standard for television - 1 season = 11 episodes - That would be 7 episodes over 7 seasons. The entire roster who signed those 7 season contracts would be freed from their contracts.

    Standard Season means 1 year - Date of first episode October 29, 2014 - Ricochet contract would expire on October 29, 2018. 7 season contract end date October 29th 2021.

    It depends on a lot of things, what the talents were promised, what the talents knew about each season and what they were told by people in positions of power, but the court would probably use an industry standard in determining the length of time of a season as defined in a television contract.

    The best gauge we will have for El Rey's interpretation of the contract is if Ricochet is brought back after the "hiatus".

    * Not a Lawyer, not legal opinion, Paralegal. For entertainment use only.

  37. #117
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    All I know is the guy I still instinctively call Johnny Nitro is the Mega Champion, apparently. Anyone on here still following AAA aside from the stuff they've been doing with Impact/GFW?

  38. #118
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    AAA continues to struggle this year, with a lot of talent defecting (Pentagon being the biggest example, early in the year) and various incidents, such as the embarrassing Taya/Sexy Star/Rosemary scandal and Jeff Jarrett showing up drunk at TripleMania. That said, I've watched a bit of the onscreen product and there's still some good stuff there. My favorite women's match of the year to date is Taya vs. Ayako Hamada in a Street Fight back in April, which I strongly recommend to anyone (starts about 12 minutes in):



    I haven't seen as much of the Johnny Mundo stuff but he's a good choice for a major player in my book, and they did some fun stuff with the Apaches and Los OGTs earlier in the year. Cult would know more than me, but AAA does have some good stuff to offer still in my opinion, even as they seem to be a terrible mess backstage. Bit like Impact in that regard maybe, so perhaps the partnership is apropos?

  39. #119
    AAA is just kind of shit. The Taya/Hamada match was fantastic and they've had a few other really strong matches this year thanks to Aerostar, Australian Suicide and the La Llave Gloria guys, but the only thing they've had going for them was the Wagner/Psycho Clown match that was a huge success. Besides that they're exactly the same they've been since Konnan left; talent leaves every other day, the booking makes no sense and the TV shows are nearly unwatchable. I guess you can give them credit for the Taya/Mundo/Vampiro thing (which was actually a work), but besides that, a few matches and Wagner/Psycho it's been another lost year for them.

    Also, this thread should be changed to a joint AAA/CMLL thread as CMLL doesn't have a thread. Which is blasphemous considering they're significantly better than AAA and probably the most consistent promotion in the world right now.


  40. #120
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    Ask and ye shall receive! Strongly agree that CMLL is THE lucha libre company, I've had a blast discovering them more and more this year. Favorite matches of the year to date have been Barbaro Cavernario vs. Volador in June, and the Cibernetico match in April. I've developed a strong love of guys like Valiente, Niebla Roja, Ultimo Guerrero, and especially Hechicero, just to name a few, as well as learning more about guys I already liked, such as Dragon Lee and Negro Casas.

    I think the biggest barrier to CMLL is the style, which does take a little getting used to but is just as good (and in some cases superior) to the typical 2017 style if you can get into it. Trios matches can be the toughest (and there are a LOT of them), especially the "captain" rule. Almost all CMLL matches are 2 out of 3 falls, but in trios matches there are certain situations where a pin can mean a man is eliminated for the duration of the fall rather than the actual end of the fall, specifically if the guy who was pinned wasn't the captain. The toughest part is it's pretty hard to tell who the captain is if you don't know Spanish (and sometimes even if you do), so if someone gets pinned but the fall keeps going sometimes you just have to go with it. But seriously, once you start watching it really isn't hard to get, and there are so many great performers and fun characters to get into.

    For a jumping on point here's that Cibernetico I mentioned, for all intents and purposes it's a 16 man elimination match and it's a great way to get a look at a bunch of guys at once. Starts around 1:21:00:



    Another really nice thing about CMLL is they are super accessible, in that almost all of their stuff goes straight to youtube. Love that.

    As for other lucha libre, I've seen a handful here and there. I've really enjoyed what little I've seen of The Crash, Konnan's promotion which is ostensibly #3 in the country at the moment. They bring in good talent both from Mexico and elsewhere and have some interesting combinations. Their biggest issue is distribution for sure, as they don't really have a set system. Some matches are professionally filmed but many seem to only exist as fan cams, which is far from ideal. I've been told (by Cult) that they might be available to watch through Konnan's Patreon service, but I've yet to test it out.

    There's also plenty of smaller indy stuff out there that I need to give a look to, with IWRG probably being foremost on that list, plus seeking out anything with Black Terry on it, one of the foremost practitioners of "old man lucha libre", an amazing style that allows guys to stay in good shape long after guys in other styles are forced to retire. A mix of technique, brawling, and character work, with a de-emphasis on flying, it's not unheard of for the most talented guys to continue to have highly entertaining matches into their 50s or even their 60s, in extreme cases.

    There's something about the lucha style that allows guys to stay in way better shape and not destroy their bodies. Part of it is the style is a bit lighter and the bumps tend to be rolling, rather than sharp impact. There's probably also something to be said for the prevalence of trios matches allowing guys to preserve themselves while maintaining a full schedule. At any rate, lucha libre has really become one of my favorite styles as I've come to understand and appreciate it more and more, and I hope to see general interest in it rise.

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