Muslim Brotherhood wins Presidential election.

[Irishsara]

Muslim Brotherhood wins the Egyptian presidential election. Muslim Brotherhood candidate Mohammed Morsi claimed a narrow victory early today in Egypt’s first free presidential election. A confirmed win by Mursi would mark the first time fundamentalists are elected to the presidency in Egyptian history.

The Military has made moves to consolidate power. the ruling military council further expanded its control over the country by granting itself war powers and removed the power of the government to remove military officials.

Ahmed Shafik, who served as Mubarak’s last prime minister, said he didn’t accept the result. Morsi claimed that he had won 52 percent of the vote with 97 percent of precincts reporting.

[sheepster]

So they decide to give the people democracy and they're surprised when the predominantly muslim population vote for the fundamentalist muslim candidate that wasn't in Mubarak's pocket for 15 years. Really?



Meanwhile...

A confirmed win by Mursi would mark the first time fundamentalists are elected to the presidency in Egyptian history. That's not as scary as it sounds, because although Egyptian history is longer than most, there's actually only been one other contested presidential election. And that was rigged anyway.

[thekorean]

Yup, another Middle East country going backwards.

need to build a HUGE fence around that neighborhood and let no one get out.

[Jackster]

Another case where the Western world tries to free a country from its dictatorships by supporting the rebels and claiming it as a short term victory before they end up electing extremist Muslims who implement Sharia law. Nice one Western world, let another bunch of loony Muslims take control of 100 million people.

However, the military leaders are trying to keep the power they have managed to acquire so this should be very interesting to watch play out.

[T.O.]

Up with Israel next!

[thekorean]

Yup, more senseless wars and destruction.

[Omega]

Suddenly, explosions.

[Phantom Lord]

I think it's safe to say the middle east was better off before the Arab spring happened. Yeah Mubarak, Gaddaffi, and others were horrible people. But fact is those iron fists kept people reigned in for a reason.

[sheepster]

But this is what the people want. This is democracy! Just because they think different to you, suddenly it's awful?!

What a bunch of doom-mongers.

[zig]

I think it's safe to say the middle east was better off before the Arab spring happened. Yeah Mubarak, Gaddaffi, and others were horrible people. But fact is those iron fists kept people reigned in for a reason.

Same thing goes for Iraq. They were all dictators that kept people under their fists. But you can't control who gets voted for. Well, you can, but that's not really democracy, is it?

[Son of Repoman]

But this is what the people want. This is democracy! Just because they think different to you, suddenly it's awful?!

What a bunch of doom-mongers.

Bingo! The western world is fine with democracy...AS LONG AS it's our picture of democracy. The minute you use it to go back to Muslim stuff EVIL! EVIL! KILL IT WITH FIRE!

[Jon9]

Isn't this the same group that had involvement in causing South Park's episode "201" to basically get heavily censored and not at all available on DVD and iTunes? Or am I thinking of another Muslim group with a ridiculously pretentious name?

[thekorean]

But this is what the people want. This is democracy! Just because they think different to you, suddenly it's awful?!

What a bunch of doom-mongers.
True but that doesnt mean we shouldn't build a wall around them to keep em coming to the civilized societies.

Unless the definition of civilized includes beheading, beating women, forcing women to dress in burkas etc...Not to mention training suicide bombers.

[Irishsara]

Firstly, the Muslim Brotherhood isnt Iran or The Taliban. Secondly, we know the real power is the military. Thirdly, there is as much women abuse in Russia as in Turkey according to the UN.

Yeah when you give a massive amount of people the right to choose their own government then they will instantly pick the furthest thing from that government. Democracy isnt some wonder drug for countries. Democracy is hard and sometimes people elect idiots but usually it takes a few elections for people to get the hang of it. Or it ends up like Russia. Its not like the Muslim Brotherhood won by huge margin and its not like they have a prohibitive majority in government. I believe that the Military Council will put in enough checks and balances.

But yeah you can clearly see why Turkey is a NATO country.

Iraq is way worse off now. Egypt might be better, Some might be better off but its WAY to early to see.

[thekorean]

Firstly, the Muslim Brotherhood isnt Iran or The Taliban. These people want war with Israel, not saying they have to be friends with them but demanding a useless war out of pride just says a whole lot about these people.

They may not be as uncivllized as the Talibans but bloodthirsty savages are still bloodthirsty savages.


Secondly, we know the real power is the military.Fair enough


Thirdly, there is as much women abuse in Russia as in Turkey according to the UN. That we know of. I bet the stats are based on beatings that are reported.


Iraq is way worse off now. Egypt might be better, Some might be better off but its WAY to early to see.

Not saying much. NO ONE anywhere ever claimed Iraq was better off though.

[Irishsara]

These people want war with Israel, not saying they have to be friends with them but demanding a useless war out of pride just says a whole lot about these people.

They may not be as uncivllized as the Talibans but bloodthirsty savages are still bloodthirsty savages.



The Muslim Brotherhood has said it will abide by the terms of Egypt's 1979 peace treaty with Israel, seen as vital to regional security. You know why it needed a peace treaty in 1979? Israel expelled thousands of Egyptians from Sinai, and commenced efforts at large scale Israeli settlement in the peninsula. Conquest. Israel occupied the vast majority of the Sinai between 1967 and 1982. I wouldnt call it pride.

Wait, so wait its a useless conflict to stand against an expansionist ethno-centric country who literally broke the Camp David peace treaty themselves a week ago when Israel moved tanks to the demilitarized boarder of Egypt and Israel? five Egyptian soldiers died at the hands of Israeli forces last year when Israeli forces crossed the Egyptian border into Sinai in pursuit of militants. Yeah if the Egyptians are the savages, when was the last time a member of the Egyptian security forces killed a member of the IDF?

Turkey scrambled two fighter jets when an Israeli jet entered Turkish held airspace last month. Israel is expantionsit. It is all about pushing it's boarders out.

[thekorean]

I see a lot of contradicting articles saying how Muslim Brotherhoods wants to kill Jews.

http://digitaljournal.com/article/315067

What a lovely bunch of people.

Israel is definitely not innocent here, but they are certainly not expansionists.

[Phantom Lord]

It could be real fun tomorrow. Earlier I was watching the news and there were probably a million people gathered in that square in Cairo as both sides say they won the election. Mubarak is also about ready to kick the bucket and the military in all of this might just say screw the results, we're in charge.

Democracy is not perfect and this is an example of it. I think a lot of us wouldn't have a problem with who ever the hell they elected if they didn't go with the terrorist group. But that's the thing with democracy. If you want to elect someone who will screw up your country that's your right to do so. We know that all too well.

[Irishsara]

I see a lot of contradicting articles saying how Muslim Brotherhoods wants to kill Jews.

http://digitaljournal.com/article/315067

What a lovely bunch of people.

Israel is definitely not innocent here, but they are certainly not expansionists.
I assume you are posting this because people chanted death to jews. Now, they could be meaning Israelis, which is probably what they mean. I mean yeah that’s rough. But is it any worse then Kansas House Speaker Michael O'Neal praying for the death of the president? Does that mean the Republicans want the president dead?
The Muslim Brotherhood has assured the United States it would not break Egypt's 1979 peace treaty with Israel repeatedly. It wants to add soldiers to clear out the Saini but if Israel should cross the border to track down its enemies then there would be a problem.

The Muslim Brotherhood has a great relationship with Turkey. You can see the problem there for Israel.

I understand the rhetoric of the Muslim Brotherhood seems hard line (and it is) but often people get mixed up from its leaders and groups affiliated with the traditionally pretty moderate Muslim Brotherhood.

Zionist occupiers is a valid way to describe the State of Israel in the eyes of Egypt. When they talk about the "battle against Jerusalem's Judaization." Do you know what they are talking about?

Some 200,000 settlers now live in illegal Israeli settlements in East Jerusalem. Israel uses techniques like the continued expansion of illegal Israeli settlements, evictions and demolitions of Palestinian homes, and restrictions on legal and religious freedoms according to the United Nations.


The European Union has stated that Israel is "actively pursuing the illegal annexation" of East Jerusalem. According to the EU, Israeli actions strengthen Jewish Israeli presence in East Jerusalem and by decimating the Palestinian community in the city. The EU has raised its concerns over Israeli house demolitions in East Jerusalem using diplomatic channels. According to the EU, demolitions are "illegal under international law, serve no obvious purpose, have severe humanitarian effects, and fuel bitterness and extremism". The EU says that the fourth Geneva convention prevents an occupying power extending its jurisdiction to occupied territory, such as East Jerusalem.

Richard Falk, an investigator with the UN Human Rights Council, has said things like “The continued pattern of settlement expansion in East Jerusalem combined with the forcible eviction of long-residing Palestinians is creating an intolerable situation in the part of the city previously controlled by Jordan, This situation can only be described in its cumulative impact as a form of ethnic cleansing”

That’s what the Muslim Brotherhood is talking about in more standard western language. Israel is expansionist in both the West Bank and East Jerusalem. I mean look at what Israel did when it controlled the Egyptian Sinai. In Fact, In May, Egypt condemned the Israeli decision of building 1, 100 new settlements in southern Jerusalem, displacing the Arab population.

The UK, France, Germany condemned Israeli settlement plans as illegal and expansionist 11 days ago.

So, in conclusion, You say Israel is not expansionist. The European Union, the UK, Germany, France and the United Nations disagree with you.

[thekorean]

Israeli settlements are in Gaza which legally belongs to Israel, since Palestine is not yet a legal sovereign state. And Israeli governments doesnt necessarily support it neither (depending on whos in power). When you say expansionist I imagine a country invading other legit sovereign countries for land.

UN is a joke too. China is a member of human rights council arent they? Yea enough said.

[Irishsara]

Israeli settlements are in Gaza which legally belongs to Israel, since Palestine is not yet a legal sovereign state. And Israeli governments doesnt necessarily support it neither (depending on whos in power). When you say expansionist I imagine a country invading other legit sovereign countries for land.

UN is a joke too. China is a member of human rights council arent they? Yea enough said.

Legally isnt the word you are looking for there. Perhaps “for practical purposes” Technically under the Geneva convention its an occupation. See, also there are no Israeli settlements in Gaza. They are in the West Bank, Jerusalem but there are in other places too. Israel has settlements in the Golan Heights which is part of Syria. There are 32 Israeli Settlements comprising of over 20,000 people. Syria is a “real” country right?

Bonus. So you say that the west bank is part of Israel because Palestine is not a state? So then the people living there should be given Israeli citizenship? Because, I mean under your definition of legal (which isn’t really legal under any understanding of international law) then they are under the soverigen rule of Israel. So if they are part of Israel territorially and not given citizenship then Israel is an apartheid state like South Africa? I mean if there is no Two States for the Two State Solution (and thus those settlements are legal) then Israel is denying people citizenship rights and ethnically cleansing a minority.

When i described Richard Falk as an investigator with the UN Human Rights Council, i probably should have also said he was an American Jew who used to be the Albert G. Milbank Professor of International Law and Practice, at Princeton University, who got his doctorate of laws from Harvard University. He was the one who said Israel is ethnic cleansing.

So if the UN is a joke is the UK France and Germany?

Also what about groups like the international red cross? The International Committee of the Red Cross holds that the establishment of Israeli settlements violate Fourth Geneva Convention. The International Committee of the Red Cross also holds that the displacement of Palestinians that may occur due to the settlements also violates Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. You know because its ethnic cleansing.

Hell even Canada thinks that Israeli settlements are a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention.

So perhaps the person who thinks there are settlements in Gaza should do their homework.

[thekorean]

It is my impression that people in Gaza strips DONT WANT Israeli citizenship. There are Israeli Arabs out there.

What ethnic cleansing? Israel welcomed Druze in to their society and are willing to give Arabs Israeli citizenships.

[Irishsara]

It is my impression that people in Gaza strips DONT WANT Israeli citizenship. There are Israeli Arabs out there.

What ethnic cleansing? Israel welcomed Druze in to their society and are willing to give Arabs Israeli citizenships.

You are wrong about them not wanting Israeli citizenship. Especially in the West Bank. There are Israeli Arabs of course, but those all live in the green line. If you live in West Jerusalem then you are not an Israeli Arab. The Israelis do not want to give citizenship to Palestinians. They go out of their way to prevent Palestinians from gaining Israeli citizenship.

For example, if you are a Palestinian and you marry an Arab Israeli there is a 2003 law denying citizenship or residency rights in Israel to any Palestinian with an Israeli spouse. If you are Jewish this is not the case though because any spouse of a Jewish Israeli is considered Jewish and given citizenship.

In fact, Israel actively works to reduce the arab population of the West Bank and Gaza using things like the Gaza blockade and even entry laws to prevent residency.

According to Israel, it stripped the residency of more than 100,000 residents of Gaza and some 140,000 residents of the West Bank of their residency rights during the 27 years between its conquest of the territories in 1967 and the establishment of the Palestinian Authority in 1994.

Israel cant give citizenship to the palestinians because then Arab (Muslims and CHristians) would outnumber jews in 2 generations in the Jewish State of Israel. the Arab population grows faster than the Jewish one. Even without taking demographics into account, just by adding the West Bank and Gaza (and not giving a right of return to Palestinian descendants) the Arab population would balloon to 40% of Israel, turning Israel into a bi-national state. Israel is built to be the Jewish state and (like Germany was supposed to be for Ethnic Germans) so creating a Bi-national state in Israel would be against what most believe. I mean something like 74% of Jewish israelis polled recently dont even think Arab Israelis should have the right to vote.

On to your second point, the Judaization of Jerusalem that The MB is talking about in that article is ethnic cleansing. It is the movement of one population from an area and replacing it with another. It is basic lebensraum.

The Israeli government continues to enact the Absentee Property Law of 1950 that allows it to seize Palestinian property in the city on allegation of absence of their owners even though the owners are still living in the city or near it.

Israel goes so far as to deny residency to Palestinians who were born, raised, and own property in East Jerusalem if they leave. Israel has denied over 14,000 Arab residents of occupied East Jerusalem alone. This is according to Israel’s own numbers. So they use their policies to increase the growth of one population and to seize their land. This action has affected more than 20% of Palestinian families in East Jerusalem.

So yeah, to expand Israel into East Jerusalem the Israeli Jews must first move the Palestinians out. The Israelis use the methods of settlement expansion, house demolitions, economic collective punishment, discriminatory housing and residency policies and the Israeli curtailing of Palestinian freedom of movement in an attempt to make all of Jerusalem Jewish as it was before the Roman Empire.

You got to remember this is the same Muslim Brotherhood who has always been involved in Palestine. It is a pillar of its party. They are pushing for peaceful solutions and internationalization of the talks. The Muslim Brotherhood is pushing for unification between the secular Fatah and radical Hamas. the ultraconservative Islamists say that the Muslim Brotherhood is too moderate on Palestine.

Remember the Muslim Brother candidate Morsi, is U.S. educated. He said things like e would rather have a good Christian than a bad Muslim as president, which is a departure from other Egyptian islamic candidates. He was called too centrist by lawyer-turned-preacher Hazem Salah Abu Ismail.

[thekorean]

Uh, no Palestinians want their own country, they dont want to live under Israeli authority, what the hell has been all these fighting about?

And Israel is better off giving Palestinians their own country. The major issue is Jerusalem though.

I bet Israelis dont want Arabs to vote because they dont serve in the military. They have same beef with orthodox Jews over there who are exempt from draft as well. But there may be Jews who hate Arabs as well. Like in every country there are bigots.

I am no pro Israel because I couldnt care less, their existence doesnt affect me, and I oppose handing them billions for their military. But claiming the greater evil is Israel is dumb.

You are right Sara, Muslim Brotherhood is a huge organization and not every one of them are anti semites who want to kill. But they are still a religious org and nothing good comes from a religious party ruling a country. its not my business and thats what Egyptians want, thats fine. Its their country they are ruining I guess.

[Irishsara]

But claiming the greater evil is Israel is dumb.

Greater evil where? In Jerusalem? Yes, they are, by a significant margin. Greater evil than the Muslim Brotherhood? Which group imprisons without trial? which group kills more people? Which group disenfranchises more people? Currently id say Israel is the greater evil, but the Muslim Brotherhood has done all the right things thus far (but has not had a chance to rule) so I believe the question is probably more of a wait and see then a clear winner.

I think we need to wait and see on the Muslim Brotherhood. The extremeists do not think they are extreme enough and I think we should wait and see if they live up to being a centrist political party.

Is Isreal a greater evil in the middle east? FUCK NO. but if it comes into conflict with Turkey then it could start a world war. Turkey is a NATO Country which is in possession of a large amount of Nato stuff. Turkey is one of five European nations that continue to house U.S. tactical nuclear weapons allocated for NATO. Look at the NATO charter. If Israel attacks Turkey we could be forced into a conflict of entangling alliances.

I think you should do more reading on a One State Solution and how it is gaining ground within Fatah's younger ranks. Id argue that most of the Palestinian terrorism is more aimed at Israeli Aparthied and settlements then it is aimed at the occupation itself. Its not like the Palestinians are the only terrorists in the West Bank though. A Palestinian mosque in the village of Jabaa was vandalized and partially set on fire early yesterday morning in a settler attack. Just as an example.

[thekorean]

Israel will never go to war with Turks. Its not beneficial for either of them.

Or US.

[Irishsara]

Uh, no Palestinians want their own country, they dont want to live under Israeli authority, what the hell has been all these fighting about?


http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/new-palestinian-strategy-document-will-make-it-difficult-for-u-s-to-oppose-un-vote-1.381426

Just saw something that might be of interest from a group Palestinian government officials, researchers and advisers . The idea is to use the UN General Assembly to create an independent Palestinian state using sanctions, turning to the International Criminal Court and nonviolent resistance .

Instead of recognizing Palestine within the 1967 borders, The Palestinians will state that the permanent borders will be determined in negotiations with Israel based on the borders of June 4, 1967. This approach made it possible to enlist the support of leading moderates in Hamas, who claim that recognition of the 1967 borders before the signing of a final-status deal means waiving the claim to the right of return and the Fatah moderates that want a common sense state as soon as possible.

The paper completely rejects the possibility of maintaining that the endless negotiations provide cover for expanding the settlements and consolidating the occupation.

It offers the Plan B one state solution too. It says dismantling the Palestinian Authority and restoring responsibility for the West Bank’s inhabitants to Israel forcing Israel to incur all the costs of the occupation and the work of policing the palestinian people leading to a binational state or democratic state without distinction between Israel and Palestinian citizens.

Bonus : Interior Minister Eli Yishai : Israel is for "the white man."

The Full quote is "Muslims that arrive here do not even believe this country belongs to us, to the white man,"

http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/06/10/israel-amend-anti-infiltration-law